What is your most controversial opinion?

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  • #848834

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @nechomah: There is no other known animal that has split hooves and doesn’t chew its cud, like the chazir, but there are animals that chew their cud and don’t have split hooves, like the camel which is mentioned in the Torah and the Llama which is not.

    Still not sure what this has to do with evolution. And it’s not “monkeys”, it’s apes, a different species. While I still am strong of the belief that everything comes from Hakadosh Baruch Hu, still He put in the world science and mathematics as a way to describe the world without Him in order that people should come to their beliefs through bechira. In other words, if there is absolute proof that there is an Abishter, no one will have any schar for believing in Him.

    Evolution is just another aspect of science that exists in the world and I see no stira between that and the Torah anymore than there is a stira between red shift caused by Doppler effects and the Torah. How it fits into the Ma’aseh Beraishis is another issue, one that I’m frankly not bothered too much by.

    #848835

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Now I’ll discuss your numbers:

    a family of 7, after taxes your $150,000 becomes about $100,000. you have 4 kids in yeshiva, each one asks for $11,000 meaning you pay $44,000 in tuition. You have rent of about $2500 a month and student loans and credit card debts of about $1000 a month. thats $42,000 a year right there. Car payments and car insurance cuts another $500 a month. there goes another $6,000. 4 shabboses a week cost you another $1000 a month, and there goes another $12,000. and now youre $4000 in the hole. and you have nothing to save so youll never buy a house. you cant afford a babysitter, yet alone a night out so you never go out. we havent even discussed summer camps.

    Rent of $2500 a month = 4 bedrooms in Brooklyn. I guess that is OK. Not everyone can live in a two bedroom apartment.

    student loans and credit card debts of about $1000 a month – Too high! what did you do to get 1000K a month is SL and you only earn 150K? And you already have four children paying tuition?

    Car Payments & Insurance $500: High for one car, normal/low for two. I thought the advantage of Brooklyn is that you don’t need a car?

    4 shabboses a week cost you another $1000 a month: “A’se Shabbatcha Chol V’Al Yitztarich L’Briyos”.

    I think your numbers are slightly too tight, but somewhat reasonable given the expectations of an “in-town” family and their needs (and yes, consider that a lack of disrespect).

    Also, what in the world happened to the first 10-15 years you were married?

    #848836

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    “chodesh Teves is mentioned in Esther.” Because they were in Paras. Everywhere our current month names are mentioned are Post-Golus Bavel. In the PRE-Golus Bavel we have:

    EXODUS 13:4 – This day came you out in the month AVIV.

    EXODUS 23:15 – You shall keep the Feast of Unleavened Bread; you shall eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded you, in the time appointed in the month AVIV; for in it you came out from Egypt; and none shall appear before me empty;

    EXODUS 34:18 – The Feast of Unleavened Bread shall you keep. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, in the time of the month AVIV; for in the month AVIV you came out from Egypt.

    DEU 16:1 – Observe the month of AVIV, and keep the Passover to the Lord your God; for in the month of b the Lord your God brought you out of Egypt by night.

    1 MELACHIM 6:38 – And in the eleventh year, in the month BUL, which is the eighth month, was the house finished in all its parts, and according to all its specifications. And he was seven years in building it.

    1 MELACHIM 8:2 – And all the men of Israel assembled themselves to king Solomon at the feast in the month ESANIM, which is the seventh month.

    And so forth…

    #848837

    Tora Yid
    Member

    Yserbius: You accept the evolutionary theory that your zaidy was an ape?

    #848838

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Yserbius: You accept the evolutionary theory that your zaidy was an ape?

    You accept Torah that your Zaidy was dirt?

    I do (accept Torah), but your point is not an argument against evolution.

    #848839

    tzaddiq
    Member

    Gatesheader: “I would even go as far as to say that, that being considered, I don’t even oppose gay marriage. Again: freedom. If they want to do that, let them. Why should I care? Why should I force my views on others? I just don’t care, and I don’t see the problem. I really don’t understand why Americans care so much about this issue in New York at the moment either – what does it matter? Why does it bother you? Let them be happy… it’s their issue, not yours.”

    are you serious?! talk about how jews get complacent in this comfortable golus….i mean, how tolerant are you?? do you not have any shame, to just let gay marriage be a part of your society and not care if it’s open?? I don’t know….do you think it’s cool to be so tolerant, or that it’s fine to be so ‘open -minded about other people’s way of life? I know one thing – that is NOT the attitude of a torah jew, i don’t care if you ARE living in a christian country, and that THEY don’t care what YOU do! if a goy does something so abhorrent and abnormal, and yes gay marriage is just that-abnormal, it should NOT be tolerated and implemented in our society. Foooy! Yuuuuch! How can you even suggest that it doesn’t bother you! would you not be bothered by people marrying animals?! Why would you even want to LIVE, and raise your yiddisheh children, and be surrounded by such evil, such tumoh, such sin! it boggles the mind. you obviously have become so callous and insensitive to sin (and yes it is a sin even for goyim)and have no shame not to be bothered at the decadent ways of your neighbors living next door to you. Would you tolerate a goy spraying poison in the air that would C”V blind you? I will stop only because my post is too long.

    #848840

    sam4321
    Participant

    Gemara Sanhedrin 109: 3 groups during the dor haflaga, the one that wanted to wage war against Hashem turned into monkeys and spiritual type beings(see gemara), so maybe evolution came from that gemara.

    #848841

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    tzaddiq: The same argument as yours can be (and has been) made for amalgamation/miscegeny. Without the Torah as a guide, there is no reason why anything should be prohibited between consenting adults.

    #848842

    Tora Yid
    Member

    Gavra: My question was — as a Torah believing Jew — does he believe the evolutionary belief that he descends from apes.

    Do you believe that belief is compatible with believing the Torah?

    #848843

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @Tora Yid

    I believe that I am a descendant of Odom Harishon, amongst many others. Science says that my ancestors were apes. Both of these statements are true, just viewing things from different perspectives. In this context, the only perspective I am concerned with is the Torah perspective.

    #848844

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    And on another note, this is perhaps my 3rd time posting a new topic on YWNCR and this has been in the top 5 for 2 days. Yeah me!

    #848845

    sam4321
    Participant

    I am not saying evolution is correct I am just pointing out where it might have started from.

    #848846

    besalel
    Participant

    gavra at work: i dont think that having the tzibbur participate in the torah education of its community is considered lehitztureych labriyos. the public school system is funded by every homeowner. the catholic schools by every member of the catholic church. if education is a basic right and not a privilege then the community ought to bear some of the responsibility. al achas kamma vekamma torah education is a right and not a privilege. also, see ????? ????? ???? ??? ? wherein the obligation to be mechanen children falls on the parents but also the grandparents and the tzibbur. in fact, the chassidishe communities that truly value torah education already have the tzibbur heavily involved in the chinuch of all of its members and tuition among those communities do not break the backs of the parents.

    that being said, we need to be practical. if you can afford to pay tuition, pay it. if you can afford more, pay more. all i am saying is that how much a person earns cannot be the determinitive factor. As an extreme example to make my point: if one person wins a $100 million lottery and never works again in his life, and his shocheyn earns $150,000 annually but is living pay check to pay check we all would agree that the millionaire ought to pay more.

    unfortunately, you are right in looking down upon the way we live in brooklyn but that is the way it is. $150,000 doesnt get you that far. as a community, we probably have our priorities all messed up.

    #848847

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Oomis, R’ Akiva wasn’t either R’ Akiva.

    #848848

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Yserbius,

    The Rama in y”d 246 is talking about any other Chachma. This is besides the problem of learning anything, even a trade, from an Apikores. The Maharal says Tzarich Iyun regarding learning from a book from such a person.

    #848850

    simcha613
    Participant

    Besalel- You say good, but say better. Tuition should be on the tzibur (at least the tzibur that attends that school). Tuition should not be a bill but a tax. It should be percentage of your income no matter how much you make, there is no dollar amount for tuition. The more your income, the more you pay in tuition.

    #848851

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    I absolutely HATE that (the Theory of) Evolution (and it is a theory) is taught in Yeshivos. My kids not only have to learn that, but they also have to study Greek Mythology, Islam, Xtianity and other philosophies that are untrue. If it is a state requirement that this garbage be taught at least have the Rabbeim debate why these philosophies are contrary to Judaism!

    #848852

    YehudahTzvi
    Participant

    If man is descended from apes, why didn’t all apes evolve? Are red heads from Orangutangs and brunettes from chimps?

    We share upwards of 99% shared DNA with apes but science has proven that apes cannot and never will evolve into a being that can have critical and logical thought. They are purely instinctual creatures. Just saw a wonderful documentary on this (Nat. Geo?).

    #848853

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    @YehudaTzvi Gravity is also a theory, no? Should physics not be taught in Yeshivas?

    What’s wrong with studying Greek and Xtian mythology? You think your kids are going to go bow down to Jupiter? It’s all just stories, and even the Gemara makes reference to them from time to time. I still remember how I read about Aphrodite for the first time in a secular context I had this smug smile remembering R’ Gamliel in the bathhouse.

    #848854

    tzaddiq
    Member

    “The same argument as yours can be (and has been) made for amalgamation/miscegeny. Without the Torah as a guide, there is no reason why anything should be prohibited between consenting adults.”

    GAW- you are SO wrong. (up until this recent generation which reached a new low) this was wrong- even in goyim’s eyes- for centuries and centuries, and millenias! why? why do you think they thought it is wrong? they didn’t have the torah as a guideline? the answer is that there is a certain innate moral and ethical behaviour in mankind that dictates right and wrong. How can you say NOTHING should be prohibited between conscenting adults, such as this blatant, perverted, unnatural act?

    #848855

    sam4321
    Participant

    yehudatzvi: Yea because according to the gemara humans turned into monkeys by the dor haflaga(they went the other way).

    #848856

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Gemara in Chagigah 5b says that Hashem cries for those who can learn but don’t and for those who can’t learn but to. Zees, even you have to agree that there are some taking money to learn who shouldn’t be. I can make that statement and still love Torah very much.

    #848857

    tahini
    Member

    Middlepath- good to see you too!

    Many of these posts are so relevant and do touch a raw nerve. Really good thread.

    Thanks YehudahTzvi for your comments on women and also different types of Jews. We are far from all being milky white, remember Avraham Avinu came from the depths of what is today modern Iraq. Some feel the Yemenite community represents a very special link to our authentic heritage. Wherever we come from a bit of kavod goes a long way! Easy to say not so easy to achieve.

    #848858

    Toi
    Participant

    yser- maybe teach 3 year olds about what it means to live alternate lifestyles and then let them chose. there is NO maaleh of having kids who are knowledgable in greek mythology. gravity is nogeiah in day to day life, so is math, history and english., but why teach our children paganism and AZ!?! Do you want kids to entirely leave the fold? cuz your mehalich hachinuch would be perect. yuch on you.

    #848859

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    Let me try again (?? ??? ????)

    Most controversial opinion here – there’s nothing wrong with learning HaShem’s Torah!!

    In my humble opinion it’s EVERY Jewish man’s privilege and obligation. For all men. Not only great promising minds and personalities. Not just to develop to become a Rabbi or Rosh HaYeshiva. To learn HaShem’s Holy Torah as HE INTENDED IT TO BE LEARNED.

    How can one not versed in all of Torah DARE GIVE AN OPINION?!? One who doesn’t fully comprehend the value of Torah, its holiness. Would a man wander into the ladies’ domain giving his opinion about female issues right and left?!? Would one give a precious stone to a butcher for appraisal?

    One must tread EXTREMELY CAREFULLY regarding this topic. Overstepping borders on Apikorsus – ??? ???? ??? ????. Yes, even here on an open (anonymous) forum. A chilul HaShem generated by some careless remark, is not regarded lightly upstairs. If we were zoche to a generation that has some sort of system, Torah & Kollel families where Torah rules supreme and the primary focus is on the Ruchnius, who is going to be to Letz, the Amalek, to laugh it off?!?

    #848860

    ZeesKite
    Participant

    To the ones so worried about the over-worked wives.

    Its their choice. They truly were looking for such a fulfilling, rewarding, HAPPY lifestyle! Yes. Look around. Walk around the streets of Kollel families (true ones, one whose husband learns enough to share home). See the inner bliss, simchas hachayim radiating off the faces of these overworked wives and mothers. They truly know where they’re headed. ????? ???? ?????, is said of these ??? ???. They know they’re the first to get the Tal of Techiya. – ??? ???? ?? ?????…

    Are they complaining to you?? Ha. I bet some of them feel bad for you!!

    #848861

    Nechomah
    Participant

    Yserbius, If the mathematical probability of even one of the chemical reactions supposed to have taken place in the “chemical soup” that is claimed to have existed on the planet’s surface at the “beginning” is more than 1,000,000 to 1 to happen, how could you even chance that it would have happened a second time. The theory of evolution has its root in these chemical reactions coming together to create some type of a being that came out of the soup. The likelihood of a part of the body of one creature that exists or has existed on this planet being created out of this soup of completely ridiculous. How did the current billions of people on the planet all end up more alike than not (hair/eye color not withstanding) for what is supposed to be thousands of years already with no evidence of any evolutionary changes going on at this time. How did an eye create itself? How did two of them get onto one face, how did they duplicate themselves for the next person/animal? I understand that a person has to have bechira, but to me it is obvious that these things did not happen by change, thus I am left with only one conclusion, that they were put their by design. I changed my entire life based on this one understanding, left my native city 20 years ago and wouldn’t go back to believing such narishkeit again. It’s so obviously been thought out by people trying to avoid any obligation to anything other than their own personal desires.

    #848862

    simcha613
    Participant

    tzaddiq- for millenia blacks, women, the mentally and physically disabled, and others were mistreated. Does that mean that it’s innately moral and ethical to discriminate against those people?

    #848866

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    gavra at work: i dont think that having the tzibbur participate in the torah education of its community is considered lehitztureych labriyos. the public school system is funded by every homeowner. the catholic schools by every member of the catholic church. if education is a basic right and not a privilege then the community ought to bear some of the responsibility. al achas kamma vekamma torah education is a right and not a privilege. also, see ????? ????? ???? ??? ? wherein the obligation to be mechanen children falls on the parents but also the grandparents and the tzibbur. in fact, the chassidishe communities that truly value torah education already have the tzibbur heavily involved in the chinuch of all of its members and tuition among those communities do not break the backs of the parents.

    I’m not sure what your point is. Are you saying that tuition deductions are not taking Tzedaka? What about money given to Yeshivos? Is that giving Tzedaka?

    Now if a communal system was in place (that accepted every single child from the community that applied, no matter how “frum” they or their parents are), then I might agree with you as far as some sort of taxation (not Tzedaka) and lower payments by all (also not). By making the differences in payments on a needs basis shows that the moneys given is to help the poor, which is Tzedaka.

    #848867

    For_real
    Participant

    I have the single most controversial opinion in the religious community….

    I don’t particularly enjoy Mordechai Ben-David’s music. I know, I know, this is sacrilegious. It’s against one of the most sacred traditions of the past century, but I need to follow my heart. Sometimes I feel like an outcast because of it. I wish people would learn to be more tolerant….

    #848868

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    I don’t particularly enjoy Mordechai Ben-David’s music.

    You Kofer!

    #848869

    yungerman1
    Participant

    For_real- Whose music do you like? Many Jewish songs sound similiar. Do you not appreciate Jewish music in general? That I can actually understand!

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