What kind of police reforms do we need?

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  • #1885755
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    I think most people agree that some things need to change, even if they don’t agree on what.

    #1885914
    akuperma
    Participant

    The statistics show race isn’t a big issue (black cops are just as likely to kill blacks as white cops are). The issue is police abuse of people they are arresting, regardless of race (and perhaps not regardless of class – rich people tend to get much better treated when getting arrested). There is no excuse for police to being injuring unarmed persons, even if they deserve it.

    When a cop busts someone, for, as an example, passing out “under the influence” in an illegally parked car, they have to treat the guy the same way they would treat their “let’s not talk about him” uncle who sometimes gets drunk in the wrong time and place. When arresting an unarmed suspect, perhaps one freaking out at being arrested, he should treat him the way he would treat his own kid if some childish prank ended up with someone calling 911.

    #1885936
    Pekak
    Participant

    Our community doesn’t have gangs and murderers. Cops issue more parking and traffic tickets in our communities. That has to change. We shouldn’t have to suffer just because they’re bored and have illegal quotas which they deny having.

    #1885937
    huju
    Participant

    I think the key to improving police treatment of arrestees is an improvement in recruiting of police. The bully wannabees must be screened out before they are hired. I don’t know how you do that, but it needs to be done.

    Another other key problem is blue omerta. When cops know that other cops won’t be witnesses against them, it emboldens the abusers to be abusive. The growing ubiquity of cellphone videos helps.

    Body cameras will go a long way to preventing unwarranted beatings. The cameras should be on all the time, and not under the control of the wearers. Something will have to be done to protect police officers’ privacy during bathroom breaks, but pointing the cameras at the ceiling would solve that problem. edited But it can be worked out.

    #1885941
    DovidBT
    Participant

    … he should treat him the way he would treat his own kid if some childish prank ended up with someone calling 911.

    What if the person is adult-sized and starts fighting with the police officer?

    #1885960
    Avi K
    Participant

    Akuperma, are rich people really treated better? Look what happened to Jeffrey Epstein. In fact, for a rich person to be arrested publicly is much worse emotionally. Imagine how suspects such as Richard Wigton felt when they were arrested in their offices and led away in handcuffs.

    #1885989
    som1
    Participant

    the only real reform thats necessary is that the body cam has to be on always when on duty and should be made available to the public

    #1886090
    The little I know
    Participant

    Here’s a suggestion. Anyone ordering police to “stand down” because of politics or liberal agendas should be charged with treason. I know it sounds radical, but the crime is. These politicians are committing domestic terror by proxy, and should be prosecuted big time for it.

    #1886092
    akuperma
    Participant

    Avi K – I don’t recall the police beating up Epstein when he was taken into custody. He apparently was arrested the “correct way”, with an arrest warrant, after being indicted. He was not in police custody when he died under mysterious circumstances (he was in jail, run by correction officers, not cops). Getting the police to treat all people they arrest just like Epstein, is the goal. Prison reform is a separate issue.

    #1886111
    DovidBT
    Participant

    the body cam has to be on always when on duty and should be made available to the public

    The question is WHEN should it made publicly available. The camera images may only provide a partial, misleading account of what happened. Releasing images early may interfere with the investigation.]

    Also, the images might contain private information that’s not appropriate for public dissemination. But that can be handled by editing out that information.

    #1886166
    som1
    Participant

    “Also, the images might contain private information that’s not appropriate for public dissemination. But that can be handled by editing out that information.”
    of course if theres information thats sensitive it should not be made available to the public.

    #1886176
    NOYB
    Participant

    “body cameras should be on all the time without control of the wearers” Forget bathroom breaks. What about an officer texting a spouse? Talking to a confidential informant? Talking to a victim of a horrible crime who is terribly traumatized and doesn’t want their face plastered across the internet? Not to mention that body cams overwrite the footage they have every 30 min. because they just don’t have much storage. Suggesting that such footage be saved forever or uploaded to the cloud instantly is so financially and technically laughable it is not even a serious proposal.

    What reforms do police need?

    Before you even talk about it, if you are not committed to making their job easier in any way you can, and tackling crime by negating the causes of it, don’t even talk about changing policing or the police in general. If you want to make certain parts of policing more stringent, you need to make some parts of their job easier too.

    I think there are a lot of things police departments can do better. However, I want to point out that a lot of our community (and the whole country) falls into 2 camps.

    Camp 1- police officers are the bravest, best people ever. Litteral malachim who can do no wrong (I might say they theoretically can do wrong, but good luck finding a case that happened outside of an hour before shabbos where I thought the cops were wrong)

    Camp 2- I got a ticket once, or a cop was mean to me, and therefore I am to the far left of BLM, and I hold all cops are Nazis.

    We need to realize that police are just people who do a job that while scary, is not actually that dangerous relative to most jobs people hold (farming, roofing, and trucking are all kill more people every year). There are a lot of things (using qualified immunity, using civil asset forfeiture, de-escalation tactics, general community relations) that the police need to do a MUCH better job of. That being said, most police officers are wonderful people, not racist or anti-Semitic, and do a job which is lemaisa dangerous and scary, for little pay and horrific side effects. They keep us safe, and for that, they deserve hakoras hatov. But they are not perfectly good or perfectly bad.

    #1886199
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    America at large should stop prattling about security and threats to our way of life, and just teach people (Your local police are also people.) how to be a human {or humane} being.

    #1886218
    Redleg
    Participant

    Yes, transparency in police practices and personnel records is important but real change requires requires the following:
    1. Police departments need to establish and publish arrest “Rules of Engagement” (hor lack of a better term) detailing all procedures for interaction with the public at large as well as with arrestees.
    2. Individual Police officers need to be held personally responsible, both criminally and civilly, for injuries and offences committed in violation of the published rules.
    3. As far as the use of deadly force is concerned, police officers should not fire their weapons unless they, themselves, are fired upon or a citizen is in imminent threat of death or grave bodily harm. I have often heard police officers claim that “their first job is to get back safe to their families at night”. Wrong! A cop’s first job is to make sure that I and other citizens get back safe to our families. If the cop can do it to, great, but it’s not in his job description.

    #1886225
    FrumWhere
    Participant

    Many decently thoughtful ideas being presented here. But I think there is one big subject that is not being addressed. If you look at the stats, almost every cop in the news for being unduly violent has a record of past complaints and disciplinary actions for similar behavior. This is mostly because the police unions control much of the hiring/firing practices in city police departments. Unions in the public sector never do the public sector any good (look at teachers’ unions, prison unions, etc. for examples), but they do create city/state deficits for which we pay high taxes. So let’s outlaw unions in the public sector. I don’t know how it should be done, but it is a worthwhile cause

    #1886243
    charliehall
    Participant

    “improvement in recruiting of police”

    I am not a big Bernie Sanders fan but he got this one right when he said that we need to attract better educated police officers and that it would take big pay increases to accomplish that. This is the opposite of de-funding police, which is one of the most stupid ideas to come down the pike in, well, since Trump said that we didn’t need coronavirus tests.

    A major problem is that police in much of the US have been de-funded already because of tax cuts and spending caps. For example, New York City has just over twice the population of Los Angeles, but almost four times the number of police officers. Conservatives in California de-funded police (and everything else) with Proposition 13 and the various spending limits.

    #1886266
    opinionated-2
    Participant

    “I have often heard police officers claim that “their first job is to get back safe to their families at night”. Wrong! A cop’s first job is to make sure that I and other citizens get back safe to our families. If the cop can do it to, great, but it’s not in his job description.”

    I disagree. They are not expected to be martyrs.

    #1886268
    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    I believe there had to be an off switch to protect privacy situations. For example naked person or the cop having to go to the bathroom. Im sure there are a slew of other reasons.

    #1886273

    Welcome back takes2!
    And a few others i noticed as well, glad you are well.

    #1886300
    Health
    Participant

    Yidd23 -“What kind of police reforms do we need?”

    This is the Topic in 2020.
    But the Topic – should be why is there So much crime in the US?
    If we would focus on that issue, there would be less of an issue on Police Reform.
    Simply because if there’s Less crime – we could have Less Cops!

    #1886323
    1
    Participant

    The cops need to get tougher in black neighborhoods

    #1886335
    huju
    Participant

    In the United Kingdom, police officers generally do not carry firearms. I would like to see some jurisdictions try that here. Anybody who shoots a cop would be shooting an unarmed person. That should carry long sentences and would sit well with juries. I think it is worth a try, but I am not a cop, so it’s easy for me to say.

    Maybe unarmed cops could wear a different colored shirt, so prospective shooters would know they are dealing with unarmed officers.

    #1886473
    hu bacha
    Participant

    they dont need any reform , the only reform thats needed is in the liberal court systems, if we had captial punishment, then every one would think twice before being a criminal. i think thats the main problem here. less criminals means less cops being mean because of less arrests due to people being forced to act normal or drop dead. of course there are a few cops here and there that need to be thrown out, you dont have a “tzaddik” in every community, you always have a crazy person in every peoples. the real problem is theres no captial punishment. another issue in this country is that not every stupid thng needs to be public, as it can cause chaos because of social media. you see what this arrest caused, even if the cop was wrong and did something wrong, he should get his judgement in court, and nobody needs to know about this whole thing, its not nogaya to anyone, shvartsa kill themselves everyday, and BLM is mostly run by white ppl. in fact the person who is funding it mr soros is the main one here.

    #1886468
    DovidBT
    Participant

    Maybe unarmed cops could wear a different colored shirt, so prospective shooters would know they are dealing with unarmed officers.

    Do you seriously think that “prospective shooters” would avoid harming cops because they’re unarmed?

    #1886470
    DovidBT
    Participant

    But the topic should be why is there so much crime in the US?

    I suggest posting that as a new topic.

    #1886471
    Health
    Participant

    Huju -“In the United Kingdom, police officers generally do not carry firearms. I would like to see some jurisdictions try that here.”
    That doesn’t solve anything. In the UK, when s/o wants to kill, they stab them.

    “Anybody who shoots a cop would be shooting an unarmed person”
    So? There isn’t Real Punishment for something like that in the US!

    #1886485
    chugibugi
    Participant

    Yes,we do need reform,we must go back to the good old days when criminals and hoodlums actually feared the police,and did not dare to lift a finger against them,and if they did they had to spend the next couple of weeks in the hospital mending quiet a few broken bones.. and where looters and arsonists were shot on the spot ,that is the reform we need to bring back law and order.

    #1886486
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Hu,
    Capital punishment, is a means of moving illegitimate power from the hands of the people to the arm of the government. Iran and Iraq had capitol punishment, that kept petty crime at very low levels. But almost all the police, military, and government workers, were rife with corruption, and evil. The imperial solution to this, was private security forces. Less criminals will not solve a bad cop problem. And more cops will not solve the problem of career criminals.

    The Officer who killed George Floyd, would not have been charged without the protests. As is, it does not look like a well run prosecution. Which is not a race issue. It is an issue with the inner workings of the Justice Departments.

    BLM is largely the work of three black woman.

    #1886502
    Health
    Participant

    nOmesorah -“Capital punishment, is a means of moving illegitimate power from the hands of the people to the arm of the government. Iran and Iraq had capitol punishment, that kept petty crime at very low levels.”

    That’s So NOT True! They do have Capital Punishment here in the US. When the Libs allowed it more than Now, it wasn’t abused by our Gov.! Not like Iran & Iraq.

    #1886508
    gilda
    Participant

    When the people resist arrest it becomes violent. The police are many times in very dangerous situations and we have to appreciate them

    #1886512

    Hello gilda, chugi bugi. (I’m taking over the welcomes for Joseph while he is awol)

    #1886652
    CTLAWYER
    Participant

    @Akuperma

    “The statistics show race isn’t a big issue (black cops are just as likely to kill blacks as white cops are). The issue is police abuse of people they are arresting, regardless of race (and perhaps not regardless of class – rich people tend to get much better treated when getting arrested). There is no excuse for police to being injuring unarmed persons, even if they deserve it.”

    RACE is a BIG issue. Many police departments (including the one in my small town) have been found to practice systemic Racism. It is NOT just about Killing Blacks, or Arresting Blacks.
    Much of the systemic racism is the HARASSMENT of Blacks (and Latinos). No shooting ior arrest need be made, but get caught driving across the Town line while black…..DWB and you have much greater chance of being pulled over, having your license and registration run and checked fro an insurance card. You also will be illegally questioned as to why you are here and where are you going.

    The State of CT has sanction our police Deoartment and abiout 20 others, issuing, fines, ordering changes, including training, asked that certain top personnel be demoted or fired, etc.

    Also, you are not just as like to get ANYTHING by a Black cop as a White Cop, when your small town/suburban police force is 98% white.

    #1886763
    DovidBT
    Participant

    @CTLAWYER
    Do you think the blame for systemic racism lies with privileged white people, such as yourself?

    #1887130
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Gilda,
    What about when a bumbling cop makes a run of the mill situation dangerous? I do not appreciate when they do that.

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