August 5, 2008 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #587967
Assuming we are not talking about Yiras Shomayim or Quakers (who shake in their boots from the word of G-D), since Yiras Shomayim is between one and the RBS”H, what places someone into the Charadi group vs. any other?
I believe there are seperate answers for Eretz Yisroel and Chutz, so please specify which one you are talking about.
Also, are Yeshivish and Charadi interchangable?August 5, 2008 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #795539JosephParticipant
Why button hole Yidden into sub-groups, each with their own name?
A Yid is a Yid. I don’t believe in all these silly names and sub-groups like Ultra-Orthodox, Modern-Orthodox, Chareidi, Chiloni, etc. (Even “Orthodox” is silly.)August 5, 2008 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #795540lgbgMember
A chareidi yid in chutz laeretz in my opionion is anyone who is a god fearing jew
who cares what color shirt he wears, if he wears an up hat or a down hat, if hes learning full time or working… as long as he is davening with a minyan three times a day and studies torah, hes considered a charadi yid!
A massive problem today is people have a tendency to stereotype others, which only leads to sinas chinam.
There was an article sometime back in the Country Yossi(something like this): ‘Moshiach’ came down and wanted to bring klal yisrael to yerushalayim however he comes down and he goes into a ‘litvish’ shul where they all wear down hats with an up hat, he walks up to a man and the man practicaly ignores him because he said ‘he’s not like him’, then he goes into a ‘chsidish’ shul with a down hat, and there to he’s also ignored because he’s not part of the crowd….
then mashiach realized how bad the ahavas yisrael is in klal yisrael, how we push our brothers away because they are not like us…. as if we are better then them!
then mashiach realized before he can come again and take us home, we need to start loving one another.
Maybe we may dress better then a more ‘modern’ yid however our gaava as if were better because we appear that way, is so much lower!August 6, 2008 12:24 am at 12:24 am #795542Feif UnParticipant
lgbg, you showed your gaava in your post! You don’t dress “better”, you dress “differently”.August 6, 2008 1:26 am at 1:26 am #795543ZalmanParticipant
Feif Un: Dressing like a traditional Yid (i.e. Hat, Jacket, etc.) IS BETTER than dressing modern. Sorry to bust your bubble.August 6, 2008 2:57 am at 2:57 am #795544oomisParticipant
Chareidi is a very subjective concept. To a non-frum Jew, anyone who is Shomer Shabbos and appears to be kosher, may be viewed as Chareidi. In my husband’s family (he is a baal teshuvah of thirty-six years’ duration), they think that anyone who goes regularly “to temple” is “VERY Orthodox.” What I as a modern machmir person, might view as being chareidi, is a whole different kettle of fish. I think that most people who read Yeshivah World News most likely view the Chareidi Jew as the more Yeshivish or
chassidish type. It’s the kind of thing where you know one when you see one. And yes, I agree, they do not dress BETTER, just differently from how some other ALSO frum people dress. If my son wears a colored Shabbos shirt, and not only white shirts, he is no less frum than those who only wear white. He likes to wear Shabbos suits that have a subtle stripe, and maybe they are navy, grey, and only sometimes black. I will stack him up against any so-called chareidi. His Middos tovos and ability to give over a d’var Torah are such that people could do well to emulate him. My husband, who did not grow up frum at all, has more appreciation for and dedication to observing the mitzvos, than many yeshivish people in my community, especially in the area of doing chessed. This is not to say chas v’sholom that chareidi people are not baalei chessed. But sometimes some of them are not. It does not come automatically with the territory of being chareidi.
LGBG mentioned the story of Moshiach’s Hat, and it is a very telling story. People are so busy checking out the size of each other’s brims and crowns, that they look down upon the boy who comes in to daven three times a day with a minyan, with “only” a
kippah on his head. And we wonder why so many frum kids go off the derech.August 6, 2008 3:44 am at 3:44 am #795545
What makes someone a Chareidi? But of course – one must be approved by the Chareidi Board of Governors as a Jew-in-good-standing! Otherwise the person becomes a mere modern orthodox.
(Watch as Feif, Pashuteh, and lesschumras take this seriously and get all offended.)
Feif – Btw, if someone dresses like a traditional jew as opposed to dressing modernly, that is better dressed. Apologies in advance if such things offend you.August 6, 2008 4:04 am at 4:04 am #795546lgbgMember
i think you get what i was saying.
but for clarity please let me rephrase:
just because we dress differently then the more ‘modern’ crowd doesnt mean were better.August 6, 2008 12:39 pm at 12:39 pm #795547Gavra RabbaMember
A charedi is simply someone who is or wants to have the attitude of a Yorey Shomayim even though he/she has shortcomings in this department. It is a state of atitude, not of accomplishment or dress. The cab driver who barely can read lashon hakodesh, BUT IS TRYING, and he may not even be shomer shabbos YET, but is making strides toward that end; the Yeshiva Bochur who learns g’mara and not much else, who believes that in this way he is doing what Hashem expects of him, is also a yarei shamayim and charedi. The person who doesn’t decide for himself what he should be doing, but follows prescribed ideology from the G’dolim is charedi. It’s all attitude, my friends!!August 6, 2008 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #795548
Having YWN as your homepage is the ultimate sign of a true charedi, in my opinion.August 6, 2008 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #795549
I thought frum/chareidi means keeping shabbos, kashrus, and taharas hamishpocha?August 6, 2008 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #795550
Sorry for the 3 posts in a row, the 2nd one was from my Mishpocho, who hadn’t seen the 1st comment, and didn’t realize I was still logged in on the computer. The opinions expressed therein may not necessarily endorsed by the real HaMagnat.August 6, 2008 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #795551rabbiofberlinParticipant
I must say that this is a constructive debate and I would hope that ALL of us lean to be INCLUSIVE of all yidden, regradless of one sees oneself. I suscribe to derech of Chabad, my own rebbe, shlomele z’l, who ALL welcome (and welcomed) every yid ,regardless of his affiliation. From a small grain of yiddishkeit, large trees of frumkeit will grow! “Umole kol hooertz deah”August 6, 2008 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #795553favishMember
to hamagnat ..and what about the other 600?August 19, 2008 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #795554
A Chareidi is someone who fully follows the Torah.August 19, 2008 7:16 pm at 7:16 pm #795555
“A Chareidi is someone who fully follows the Torah.”
I count 4 charaidim and that’s it. (Amram, Binyamin, Yishai and Kilav).
Please be more descriptive.August 19, 2008 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #795556SarahMember
I think you might need to clarify this with yourself. If you wear sleeves that cover your elbow, and a member of another group of Yiddin are not careful with covering elbows (simplistic example, for illustrative purposes only), are you dressing differently, or “better”?
Are there some practices that are objectively “better”, such as adherence to halachah, or are all choices simply “different”? Not referring to the people practicing them, who may or may not be “better” than the next, which is not our place to judge.
No need to lord it over other folks, and discuss this, unless there is a possibility the individual will remediate the tznius infractions. Nevertheless, if you feel your dress is merely “different”, and not for the purpose of being in consonance with halachah, and if you feel tznius infractions are mere “differences” in dress, I think some reflection on your understanding of Judaism is in order. I mean this sincerely, and hope it is received in kind.
Naturally, I am ONLY referring to actual breaches in tznius dress; there is no need to discuss the specifics here.August 19, 2008 11:24 pm at 11:24 pm #795557
a chareidi is technically another word for yirei shomayim. it is more commonly used in eretz yisroel to encompass the group of orthodox jews who are “ultra” (not that i agree that the mizrachi jews are any less ultra, but you know what i mean) orthodox. in reality is is a society in eretz yisroel that adheres to everything rabbinim dictate in both halachic and social aspects of life, where in the mizrachi communitys, known as daati, where halachic decree they follow, and social decrees are given as more suggestive. then you have charidal, which is mix of both, where most run of the mill americans will fall (heavily chassidic americans would fall in the chareidi camp.)August 20, 2008 12:43 am at 12:43 am #795558
That is a brand new (to me) sub-category you mention. “Charidal”? Please elaborate.August 20, 2008 2:18 am at 2:18 am #795559Chuck SchwabParticipant
The Yeshivisha and Chasidisha velt is considered Chareidi.August 20, 2008 3:08 am at 3:08 am #795560
ujm, charidal is short for charedi leumi, or a mix of charedi, and mizrachi.August 20, 2008 3:36 am at 3:36 am #795561Pashuteh YidMember
THere are many more categories, as heard from a friend. There is chareidi, yeshivish, heimish, modern from birth, modern heimeisher, heimish from birth, frum YU type. etc. etc. etc. By the heimisher we don’t do that. Nisht fun unzer. Not from our type.August 20, 2008 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #795562
pashuteh yid, that is here, not in eretz yisroel. in eretz yisroel, they use hebrew words, like chareidi, mizrachi, da’ati, chiloni, etc.August 20, 2008 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #795563JosephParticipant
Perhaps if we use another 2 languages we can add another bakers dozen of sub-sub-categories? And if we try hard enough, maybe every Jew can be placed in his own categorical sub-saharin ethnic/religious socio-economic minority affirmative-action approved depressed race group!August 20, 2008 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #795564lammed heyMember
I thought Chardal was mustard 🙂
I actually agree with Gavra Raba, that someone who is trying to grow is a Yarei Shomayim. The question asked about a Charaidi, which may depend on dress, occupation, lifestyle, and location insead of actual “shake(ing) in their boots from the word of
G-D” (as per the poster).
In E”Y, I would think going to the Army/Sherut or not is a good indicator.August 5, 2011 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #795565
Gavra: A Chareidi is someone who believes in the concept of deveikus. In other words, that God is literally connected with every Jew if we first connect ourselves with Him. Deveikus is what defines a Chareidi Jew, and it stands at the core of the motivation of Chareidim to fulfill mitzvos bain adam l’makom, have a relationship with Hashem, and keep away from movies etc. I believe that MO philosophy of Judaism does not include belief in this ‘Diveikus’ concept.August 5, 2011 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #795566
I believe that MO philosophy of Judaism does not include belief in this ‘Diveikus’ concept.
Whoa, heavy, but totally not.
?”? ??? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? (????? ?) ???? ?????? ??’ ?????? ???? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ?????? ?????? (????? ?) ?? ?’ ????? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? (????? ?) ????? ?? ?’ ????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??????
I think the “Devaikus” you are discribing is a very Chassidish concept (if that). Litvak “Charaidim” (such as the GRA) would not agree, or would agree in the abstract, but not as the main purpose. The GRA and other litvaks would say the core of doing Mitzvos is to fulfill the Ratzon Hashem to do them.
BTW, bringing in movies does not help your argument in any fashion, it just shows you have some agenda.August 5, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #795567mikehall12382Member
Lomed Mkol Adam…thanks for another MO jab…August 5, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #795568
Gavra: There is only one Deveikus concept. And yes, it is mifurash Midrash like you qouted (as well as many other sources). Both Litvaks and Chasidim believe that this is the core of Judaism. The difference between Litvaks and Chasidim is to whether Limud Hatorah is necessary to reach this Diveikus or not. I personally am a Litvak.
Do you really believe that all MO sincerely believe in this Midrash? Do they really believe that a Talmid Chacham who learns Torah all day is on a higher spiritual plane then the layman who works? It’s clearly evident from their general lack of Emunas Chachamim that they actually do not believe this.August 5, 2011 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #795569
There is only one Deveikus concept. And yes, it is mifurash Midrash like you qouted (as well as many other sources). Both Litvaks and Chasidim believe that this is the core of Judaism. The difference between Litvaks and Chasidim is to whether Limud Hatorah is necessary to reach this Diveikus or not. I personally am a Litvak.
Not what you said originally. To quote:
Deveikus is what defines a Chareidi Jew, and it stands at the core of the motivation of Chareidim to fulfill mitzvos bain adam l’makom, have a relationship with Hashem, and keep away from movies
I’m happy you have come around and agree with the Gemorah, though.
Do you really believe that all MO sincerely believe in this Midrash?
It is a gemorah.
I do not. Then again, I don’t believe all Yeshivish people believe it either, or Chassidim or even Yerushalmis. Perhaps many believe THEIR Rebbe/Rov is on a higher madraiga, but not the other person’s rebbe.
It’s clearly evident from their general lack of Emunas Chachamim that they actually do not believe this.
I’m not sure why one has anything to do with the other. And besides, it would make the differenition point a matter of Emunas Chachamim, not Devaikus.
I think you are comparing apples to cars. Compare top MO to top Charadi, and what is the difference, not bottom MO to top Charaidi.
For example, I think most of us would agree Rav Shachter is not Charaidi. He would be a “counterexample” to your point.
Or as another example, I can say Charadim are Sonei Yisroel and are allied with Iran, because of the NK, while MO are not allied with Iran.August 5, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #795570ChachamParticipant
In case you may wonder why should a yeshivish person look down on a modern orthodox person, there is a very simple sevara. We are all in this world to do avodas hashem. However the atitude is very different. By the yeshivish people, We go out of our way to preform mitzvos in the most lechathcila way possible, because l`kach Notzarta. However, by the modernishe, frankly they just try to find every kula and get out of and get away with whatever they can. Maybe this does not justify bashing MO, but this is a reason why we think we are correct. We try to do what we are created for in the best way. Then these people make fun of those who have chumras. Better have every chumra in the book than not to.August 5, 2011 4:08 pm at 4:08 pm #795571
yeshivish != Charaidi.August 5, 2011 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #795572PeacemakerMember
For example, I think most of us would agree Rav Shachter is not Charaidi.
What makes Rav Shachter not a Chareidi?August 5, 2011 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #795573
Gavra: 1) I don’t see how my two posts contradict one another. I just explained more in the second post.
2) Aggadah in the Talmud is considered Midrash (as opposed to Halacha).
3) There is big difference between believing in the general concept that a specific person who learns Torah is more spiritually elevated than another person, to believing that your Rebbe is the exclusive Rebbe.
4) Emunas Chachamim derives from Deveikus. You only believe in a Chacham since you recognize that he is in essence spiritual material through his Deveikus.
5) I’m discussing Chareidi-MO philosophy, not people.August 5, 2011 4:34 pm at 4:34 pm #795574mikehall12382Member
Lomed Mkol Adam and Chacham…please don’t generalize…They’re many Yeshivish people who are the same as you described…August 5, 2011 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #795575
What makes Rav Shachter not a Chareidi?
I believe he is as well, but I think most people would disagree. But then you are left defining Charadi as what one does (i.e. a Yarei Shomyaim), not to which group they belong (such as YU).August 5, 2011 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #795576mommamia22Participant
Chareidim….. Those who “shake”from yiras shamayim. Technically, I think it fair to say NO ONE constantly falls under this category at every moment. I think it a more accurate question to state: “who wants to be a chareidi ? Those who try to be makpid b’mitzvos all the time/as much as possible would be those striving to be chareidim. Since we cannot know people’s beliefs and actions, there is no way of knowing who truly is one: whether it be the man with the cap, the gray hat, the Kippah srugah (any of you ever seen a merkaz haravnik? Women with tights under sandalim, hair fully covered with tichels, men learning full time…. Very frum and tzniusdik/Even if they don’t call themselves chareidi, I’d say technically they are)… Bottom line… Only HKB’H knows.August 5, 2011 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #795577
One can learn Torah all day and actually be a great Torah Scholar, but if he doesn’t believe that during each word of Torah which he utters from his mouth he is literally connecting to Hashem, then he will not become a spiritually elevated person. Whereas, one who is not bright at all, but recognizes that with each word of Torah he utters he is literally connecting with Hashem, and sits and learns each day w/o ever becoming a recognized scholar, he is actually the one who becomes a spiritually elevated person, which is the real purpose of Limud Hatorah.August 5, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #795578
Middle two points I’m somewhat OK with. The fourth sounds like Apikorsus (which I’m absolutly sure that is not what you meant), and the fifth I think you yourself don’t believe.
1: The Gemorah/Medrash (semantics) discusses how one is Davak to Hashem, either by learning themselves (see Rashi), or by proactivly helping others (Talmedei Chachamim) to learn. It does NOT say “by doing mitzvos”. The Chassidic/Litvak divide is whether doing Torah yourself or helping/sticking to a Rebbe who learns is the better method. I believe MO also give money to yeshivos, so that qualifies.
4: One does no “believe” in Talmidei Chachomim, just like one does not “believe” in Yoshke. I’m not sure what you mean there, please clarify.
5: You can’t discuss Chareidi-MO philosophy and then say “Do you really believe that all MO sincerely believe in this Midrash”! Just like Charadi Philosophy is not carried out by Levi Aaron, MO philosophy is not carried out by those who text on Shabbos. Compare apples to apples.
Now. I admit I have never read “Halachic Man” by Rav Yoshe Ber, but I believe it is the premier MO philosophy sefer (or maybe some seforim from RSRH). Since you have read it (as you profess to know “MO Philosophy”), how does it compare to “Charaidi Philosophy”?August 5, 2011 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #795579PeacemakerMember
gavra: Levi Aron never claimed to be Chareidi. Even when he wasn’t eating in McDonalds. Bad comparison.
And RSRH was not MO.
BTW, what made Rav Yoshe Ber MO?August 5, 2011 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #795581
Peacemaker: I agree with all of your points. I don’t think LMA would, though. Lets see what he has to say (I’m disussing according to his definition, not mine, yours & mommamia22).
One can learn Torah all day and actually be a great Torah Scholar, but if he doesn’t believe that during each word of Torah which he utters from his mouth he is literally connecting to Hashem, then he will not become a spiritually elevated person. Whereas, one who is not bright at all, but recognizes that with each word of Torah he utters he is literally connecting with Hashem, and sits and learns each day w/o ever becoming a recognized scholar, he is actually the one who becomes a spiritually elevated person, which is the real purpose of Limud Hatorah.
Prove it. Source? In fact, there are many sources against, such as Torah Maivi Ledai Ma’ase, and Mitoch Shelo Lishma.August 5, 2011 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #795582
1) I have no problem if MO would give money to Yishivas knowing that they connect to Hashem through the Torah in the process. This is what Litvish Baal Batim do. The issue is that they don’t have these specific Kavanos when they give money.
4) I meant that the concept of Emunas Chachamim goes hand in hand with the concept of Deveikus. If you really believe that your Rebbe/Rosh Yeshiva is connected to Hashem through his Torah learning and spiritually higher than yourself, then you will naturally be inclined to listen and follow his advice even if you don’t understand it well.
5) This has nothing to do with texting on Shabbos. MO believe in Halacha but they do not necessarly believe in many Midrashim and Agaddah, as they question if it’s really Toras Moshe.
BTW, RSRH was vehemently against Modern Orthodoxy.August 5, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #795583Derech HaMelechMember
I think the the root difference between chareidim and MO is whether you believe that our main job is to integrate into society and be ma’aleh the chol el hakodesh, or to cloister yourself lifnai v’lifnim in the kodesh hakedoshim – the walls of the beis medrish.August 5, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #795584ItcheSrulikMember
So far I hear a bunch of people claiming that “charedi” means y’rei shamayim, or a host of other virtues. This all sounds very nice until you realize this isn’t what they mean, because a yerei shomayim who doesn’t fit the other definition — which I won’t use here — won’t be counted as a yerei shamayim.
Peacemaker: What made Rav Yoshe Ber MO was that he had a degree, expected his talmidim to do the same, and valued emes over shtus.August 5, 2011 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #795585yitayningwutParticipant
Any real litvak would thoroughly enjoy Halakhic Man. I found it to be a virtual Nefesh Hachayim with commentary. It’s straight up litvishe hashkafah.August 5, 2011 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #795586
Derech Hamelech: Can you quote a Torah source that learning secular studies accomplishes “Maale Hachol El Hakodesh” Btw, it actually accomplishes the opposite.
Itche Srulik: So you are equating MO philosophy with Emes and Chareidi philosophy with Shtus? Chareidi philosophy is the traditional Jewish philosophy dating back over a millenim.
Gavra: source for what? “Mitoch Shelo Lishma” means learning in order to become a recognized scholar, but still believing in the concept that the words of Torah learning literally connect oneself with Hashem. This kind of learning accomplishes in the long term ‘Lishma’-for the sake of learning. The learning I was discussing above was learning while lacking this fundemental belief; such learning is not classified under “Shelo Lishma” in the Gemara, and naturally will never accompish the “Lishma” which the Gemara refers to.August 7, 2011 2:59 am at 2:59 am #795587oyveykidsthesedaysMember
gavra said: Now. I admit I have never read “Halachic Man” by Rav Yoshe Ber, but I believe it is the premier MO philosophy sefer (or maybe some seforim from RSRH). Since you have read it (as you profess to know “MO Philosophy”), how does it compare to “Charaidi Philosophy”?
unless you have expertise in english, latin, and certain basic philosophical concepts, don’t bother trying. however you raised an interesting point, that halakhic man is the premier MO philosophy sefer. The truth is,there’s nothing MO about the concepts themselves. It’s basically the litvish/brisk hashkofa of the inherent importance of limud hatorah, of strict observance of halacha, and spirituality comes second – halacha is the first step- translated into an extremely high class and philosophical english/latin/greek which is practically impossible for most people to understandAugust 7, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #795588yitayningwutParticipant
unless you have expertise in english, latin, and certain basic philosophical concepts, don’t bother trying.
I beg to differ. While a high level of vocabulary is certainly necessary if you don’t want to be running back and forth to your dictionary to find out the meanings of “axiological” and “ontological,” it should be understandable to an intelligent person, which I trust Gavra is. There are a couple of Latin phrases thrown in every now and then but they are mainly words that have already made their way into mainstream academic/legal jargon, and many times their meaning is also understandable from the context, but either way, you can find them all in the dictionary.August 7, 2011 4:39 am at 4:39 am #795589Josh31Participant
“or to cloister yourself lifnai v’lifnim in the kodesh hakedoshim”
Only one person was allowed into the kodesh hakedoshim, and only on one day.
In other areas of Kodesh only Kohanim were allowed.
The Tribe of Levi at Exodus was only about 1/40th total Jewish nation.
Most of us have to operate in the world of Chol and elevate it.
Today we are not lacking the “Tribe of Levi” who are most energized in the service of G-d. We are lacking the other tribes.August 7, 2011 4:50 am at 4:50 am #795590mw13Participant
True, Chareidi literally translates as “one who shakes out of fear of Heaven”, but I think we all agree that that’s not what the term refers to today. Today the term Chareidi refers (IMHO) to somebody with a certain set of hashkafos:
1) The Chareidim believe in “sheltering” themselves from the secular world and its influence as much as practically possible. Some Chareidim believe in dressing and acting very differently other nations so as not to mix with and become influenced by them.
2) The Chareidim often have a much broader view of the concept of Mesorah then the MO do. Therefore, they are very wary of anything new to Judaism (Zionism, expanded roles for women, etc).
3) Chareidim often advocate chumros, or making sure to follow the most stringent halachic opinion.
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