What should I pack for seminary year in Israel?

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    I am going to seminary in Israel this year- can’t wait!!

    How much should I pack, what would I need? what can I give up on ( I can’t bring much with one suitcase)

    Should I plan on getting stuff in Israel or should I bring it all with me?

    Please share your experience!!


    One suitcase? It used to be two! Did they change the rules recently?

    🍫Syag Lchochma

    Yup, last August. B”H it was right AFTER I bought my daughters ticket.


    Wow, that’s tough!


    I think theres a sem handbook with info for packing, getting around in Israel etc. you may want to look into it.

    Good luck!



    well, if you have family or friends living in israel or coming to israel while ur there (even before that) you can have them bring stuff up also. i had that done a couple of times when i was in sem. also depends on how much time before sem starts are you gonna be there? if you have a couple of days, go around with ur new friends to get binders/paper/notebooks/pens…(their paper only fits “israeli” binders, so probably better off getting that stuff there, rather then bringing tons of paper from here). whatever you decide here’s a list (i’m sure there’s much more, but here’s what i can think of on the spot):

    — clothing(everyday [which ends up being uniform most of the time, but forget the times you wont be in school, or u’ll want to change after classes], shabbos, tiyulim. tiyulim=tshirts/polo shirts, junky skirt, sneakers, water shoes)

    — shoes for every day and shabbos

    — RAINBOOTS!!! (def came in handy when i was in sem!)

    — winter coat/jacket (i had mine sent up when it started getting colder)

    — makeup (and any creams/lotions you put on ur face), deodorant, hair iron, blow dryer,brushes, combes and whatever you put in ur hair

    — static guard

    — bath towels/bath robe, wash cloths, hand towels

    — any contact lens care items you may need, or glasses and a few cloths to clean them with

    — bug spray (tiyulim can get a little sweaty and attract many unwanted guests…)

    — siddur/tehillim/aneini/machzorim you can get there without question, but if you have ones you specifically like from home, bring them. just know they weigh a lot.

    — bed spreads (i borrowed from my aunt and uncle for the year, so i didn’t have to bring it up. that included two sheets, a blanket, two or three pillow cases, and the pillow)

    — smallish bag for tiyulim/camel backpack (if you choose to bring a small bag, make sure its big enough to hold anything you may need, meaning a change of clothes, towels, water shoes, water bottles, flashlight if tiyul is at night,tissues, camera, siddur in case you need to daven), and know that if you bring a camel backpack, it doesn’t hold that much (it holds one really huge water bottle and is not as much of a shlep to bring everywhere, cuz it stays on ur back) so u’ll need another smaller bag for clothes and other stuff. my friend had a camel back pack and it was so amazing for her!

    — a bag to take with you when you go out for shabbos (someone gave me one as a gift when i graduated, and i am telling you, i used it EVERY SINGLE WEEK! it really came in handy, it fit exactly what i needed, shabbos clothes (including tights, shoes), blow dryer/hair iron in case you don’t do ur hair b4, makeup, siddur…

    –jewelry (not anything you will be upset about losing. when i was in sem i lost my ring with my name on it (a kosel ring, how ironic!) and i’m quite upset about that…

    — stationary (you could also get there)

    — any medicines if you need, or any medical item (epipen, inhaler, whatever…)

    — toothbrush, toothpaste (you can get there, but again, if you like a specific kind…)

    — shampoo and shower soap/gel (you can get there, but if you like a specific kind… just know thats a lot of weight)

    — a journal (some ppl think its stupid, but don’t let that get to you. i wrote one, and i LOVE looking back at it. it does two things, reminds me of everywhere we went, everything i did which brings back such great memories. and i look back and see how much i grew since then. i also kept in there notes that friends wrote to me throughout that year.

    — camera

    — an address book (so you can write down addresses and numbers of ppl you can go to for meals) obviously get the list and write them in BEFORE you leave to sem…and numbers/addresses of ppl from home that you wanna kit with

    — sunblock (you can get there)

    — flashlight (i mentioned it, but i didn’t put it down as an item yet)

    like i said, i’m sure i’m missing things, but i’ll try to think of more. where are you going to sem? maybe i know some girls going there…


    I’m a guy so I can’t really give you advice, but I would just bring whatever I would bring to camp just with a little more of everything. I fit all my stuff in 1 suitcase no problem. My second one was just for my linen and stuff I had to bring to my sister there. I suggest you buy linen there (there are plenty of places to buy) because it takes up a ton of space.


    wow!! yummy cupcake; ur AWESOME!!!

    well if you really wanna shteig- bring a sidder, two skirts, two shirts, shabbos dress, shoes, nightgown*;), stockings…and bring your daddys credit card too;)…JK- i prob dont need to bring any o that stuff- with all that shchina…:)

    Shopping613 🌠

    Btw I live in Israel and I used to live on America so j know a few things:

    -Sunblock! Definetly, the sun is strong here and you need to put it on the night before if the next day you plan to be in the sun a lot

    – if you can read small there is no need for a tehilim, you can buy those mini ones for a quarter

    – a laptop or a computer so you can keep in touch

    – might want to have a decent meal before you come, a lot of food they don’t have here

    – definetly a diary

    – camera for sure!

    – make room cuz you as definerly gonna bring back more than you came with….presents……

    – if your hair is curly, mousse is VERY expensive here

    And that’s the things plus what yummy cupcake said


    The only things you absolutely need to bring are shoes, clothing, and deodorant. You will probably regret bringing things like linens and toiletries once you see how cheap they are in E”Y.

    Also, it’s unwise to bring any sort of hair appliance or some such. Everyone my year who brought their U.S. appliances had problems. You can get a cheap one there, or you can just mooch off your foreign classmates (like I did ^_^).

    Also, like yummy said, it’s much better to buy school supplies there, because the standard paper size there is different, and won’t conform to your American binders/notebooks.

    Shabbos bag – you don’t have to bring one because Masa will give you one. 🙂

    Oh, and a camera is a good idea. But you don’t absolutely need one, because 17 other people will have the same exact pictures that you do. (I know this because my camera broke in the middle of the year.)


    girls going to sem, look around your room, your house, your friends rooms… just in case I missed something (like I noticed shopping613 mentioned pajamas/nightgowns, which are kinda important 🙂 )

    girlies, i’d love to know where ur all going! i wanna know if I have friends going with ya!


    Hi I got this from my seminary the summer before I left! I didn’t look through it, so don’t remember if it was too much or anything, and I don’t know what type of person you are, or what sem you are going to, so use some common sense, and dont get too overwhelmed! This was in different colors and stuff but since I just copied and pasted, there were comments from girls that were originally in a different color then the item and it may be a bit confusing, so sorry in advance! I hope this helps, and if you want the colorful clear original, maybe there is a way I can email it to you, and I wish you the best of luck and a great year!

    ‘Packing List’


    2-3 sheets

    2 pillow cases

    2 blanket covers

    2-3 towels

    2 washcloths

    Blankets, pillows

    Mattress cover (Some girls said: “The beds are fine, if harder than at home; one matress cover won’t make the difference.”)

    ‘School Clothing’

    Minimum that should be necessary

    6-10 sweaters

    3-4 pleated skirts for daily wear to class, plus non-pleated for out of class wear.

    8-10 long sleeved collared oxford shirts

    A lot of shells

    I always seemed to run out and have to do laundry..Also I brought wayyyyyy too much clothing-you really only need 5-6 weekday tops, a few sweaters, 2 sweatshirts, 2-3 weekday skirts (at most 4- people tend to wear the same 2 long black skirts every day.)


    4-5 Shabbos outfits (Though by the end of the year, I was pretty much wearing the same Shabbos outfit, it was nice to have pleanty to choose from.

    Shabbos robe (A shabbos robe isn’t a necessity. I only wore it in the dorm, and rarely on Friday night. It was good for Shabbos afternoon, but if you have one long shabbos dress that was really comfortable, that can be worn as a robe. I never brought my robe with me for out Shabbosim.)

    Overnight bag for Shabbos away, garment bag for Shabbos – (Many people used wheelie suitcases. I just used used the backpack I brought. I thought it worked better since then you didn’t need to worry about rolling it on the bumpy and crowded sidewalk. Due to the israeli streets the wheels might not survive, but its definitely worth it to bring. Also bring either travel-size toiletries or a toiletries bag with bottles.)

    *Shabbos shoes (When it comes to Shabbos shoes, you might want to avoid heels!! They’re totally unnecessary, and especially uncomfortable if you plan on walking just about anywhere, being that Eretz Ysroel is an exceptionally hilly country! (Why hurt your feet more than necessary?? Have some mercy on your toes!!!) Not to mention the fact that most young girls there don’t wear heels, and you’ll probably stick out if you do… Also, don’t bring your favorite pair that you’ll want for after seminary…. due to all the walking and the streets in israel, they’ll be ruined by the end of the year.)

    (Shabbos coat)

    General Notes:

    Good outfits might very easily get ruined because the water and detergents are different.

    When you are sent to families for Shabbos, chances are that they will not be well-off so don’t dress extravagantly.

    For Shabbos take into account the summer weather, then regular weather and then winter weather. That means two mamash summer outfits, two outfits that can go either way, and two outfits for winter.


    Do not bring a thousand pairs of shoes!

    Shoes get ruined and worn out very quickly in Israel – nothing too dainty – the dust will stain them.

    Comfortable flats- a few good pairs, 2-4.

    Boots for the rain

    Shabbos shoes* (see above)

    Slippers for around the dorm and flip flops*- like cheap kind for the shower- VERY USEFUL!

    Water shoes with backs- so helpful for all of the water hikes, even a junk pair of sneakers so you can hike as well.

    Walking shoes*


    Stockings/tights/pantyhose/ Socks

    There is good hosiery in Israel, but it costs between five and six dollars a pair. So don’t worry about getting stuck, but bring from home, enough that will last you. That means you know yourself, if you’re the kind of person who rips or gets runs a lot- bring enough stockings to last you till November and then again- starting a little after Purim time.

    Between November and Purim, you need tights.

    Tights: I’m assuming generally rip less often- it’s just annoying to try to find in Israel, and it’s more expensive.


    long, full skirts that you can hike in comfortably *hiking shoes (see above regarding water shoes) 6-8 pairs of knee socks

    cap with sun visor



    Just to emphasize the canteen for tiyulim… I brought a camel back with me to sem, it’s basically a knapsack that holds around 3 li. of water in it!! I’m not saying to get one of those (though i would recommend it,) but it saved my life when we were hiking up the snake path on Masada as well as the stairs in Tzfat, plus a hundred more times on other tiyulim… water is a MUST on tiyulim and a canteen is DEFINITELY A GOOD IDEA!!!)

    bathing suit and bathing cap and a tzniyus cover up

    Canteen isn’t needed. We all carried our water bottles around in out backpacks, and left ones not needed on the bus.

    ‘Dorm Life’

    2 sweat shirts

    3 pajama pants (bring thin and thick)

    4 shirts Or Long nightshirts

    Note: students may not leave their dorm rooms in pajamas. A robe or skirt must be put on top.

    Comfortable clothes, sweatshirts

    *Shower/beach slippers

    *Slippers to wear around the dorm

    Bath robe



    Don’t bring too much dry cleaning or hand wash stuff (especially hand wash stuff) people lose patience with it, never do it and that means never wear it and that means waste of space.

    Laundry bag (fold out laundry bag definitely advised over a laundry bag- it gets annoying.)

    Maybe some detergent tablets (though you can buy detergent in Israel. Don’t bring detergent! Bring some in a small bottle for when you want to spot clean/hand wash something. You can buy detergent right by school)

    mesh bags

    Iron (you can buy there, or borrow from a friend. There will always be someone who buys one, or gets from a sibling. It’s best to all chip in and buy one I would suggest, however, not to bring so many outfits that need to be ironed. You can iron it right from the drier, and it gets wrinkled in your closet, and you can’t wear it when you want to.)

    Bounce Sheets (the water is hard and makes stuff crunchy!)



    They sell these in Israel! Don’t pack for an entire year unless you are very particular about your brand.They even have the American brands like Head and Shoulders and Pantene, but a little more expensive than the Israeli brands.


    Contact lens, solution, case, and bring your glasses (maybe even a spare pair!!! Bring lens solution- 1-2 Costco size bottles should DEFINITELY DO. It cost so much more in Israel.)

    Bring a small bottle of mouthwash and a small bottle of purell – as well as a bigger bottle of both, so that you can refill the smaller ones and keep the small ones with you for tiyulim and Shabbos.

    FACE WASH! You can barely find in Israel and it’s a fortune.

    Sunscreen- the same. It’s expensive.

    Aloe- in case you get burned, and you are likely to.

    Hair brush, ponytail holders, bobby pins, cute clips, headbands, chappers


    Soap: antibacterial, hand, face, body


    Toothbrush-and toothbrush cover or case


    Shampoo- (I would NOT suggest bringing shampoo and conditioner from home- you can buy in Israel. It’s a little more expensive, but it doesn’t pay to bring from home because of weight and room and the chance it can explode in your suitcase (it did in one of my friends’ suitcases, and yes she did wrap it in plastic bags.)


    (It’s a good idea to have travel size for going away or containers you can fill.)

    Mousse, gel, spray

    Shavers, cream

    Personal items

    Tweezers, nail clipper, nail filer, compact, makeup bag




    Other: Off, after bite, Orajel, Neosporin, lip balm, acne wash, Vitamins, Tylenol, Advil, Benadryl caplets, Benadryl spray, Band aids, Debrox, Peroxide, Air freshener



    Warm waterproof jacket


    Hat, gloves, scarf


    Jacket wise- I suggest a light spring jacket, a big thick sweatshirt and then a winter coat, and some form of rain jacket


    Remember: 220 Voltage

    hair iron or blow dryer

    Digital camera and rechargeable batteries

    (You will need an adapter or you can buy rechargeable batteries in Israel. If you are buying a digital camera before seminary, BUY A WARRANTY! Most girls (even the most cautious and careful) had something happen to their camera. Don’t think it won’t happen to you because you don’t want to be stuck without a camera or paying a lot of money in the middle of seminary.)

    Adapters – (I bought in Israel, was easier for me that way…)

    Alarm clock


    Flash light

    (you might be best off buying the right adapters in Israel)


    Two Views:

    They sell food in Israel!!!! Don’t waste your suitcase space with cans of Tuna!!

    Bring your favorite snacks, really hard to find food, or just some stuff to tide you over till you have time to shop (tuna cans, American cereal, peanut butter, instant oatmeal)

    ‘Dorm room’

    Pictures of friends to hang up

    (a picture calendar is the cutest idea!!)

    A throw, pillows (might be better to shop around in Israel for these things)

    shoe organizer (It definitely helps. The rooms are small, and the hook onto the sides of the beds just fine. It keeps the floor look clean and not stuffy.)

    Collapsible drawers and shelves-check out target, crate and barrel, linens and things…. Buying collapsible drawers and shelves are great, but there isn’t really so much room. Organizer baskets are great for your closet, but you don’t get much of your own floor space.

    Organizer boxes (One for under the bed is great because that is space not normally used.)

    Small rug to put by your bed so your feet don’t freeze in the morning

    (You won’t need a rug, because most people don’t like to walk barefoot on the floor, so you won’t feel the cold!)

    A basket or hanging thing to keep your shower stuff in is useful because of the lack of space.

    Foldable Boxes for stuff like socks, etc. (or you can buy baskets in Israel)

    Siddur (A Siddur that fits into your purse I found to be a lot more travel friendly when going to the Kosel.)

    ‘Books for school’

    Hangers-get the kind that you can hang multiple things on: skirt hangers-you won’t find them there!!!

    Hooks-the kind that you can put in the bathroom, on the back of your door, etc.

    Safety pins. Carry them with you everywhere. And if the girl who gave me a safety pin outside Tachana HaMerkazit reads this– know that I am still very grateful to you, and intend to adopt your safety-pin-carrying habit next year! I thought that very clever of you.

    Paper clips, rubber bands

    Can opener and peeler- and be sure to hide them well because people like to borrow them. (Can opener/ peeler aren’t really necessary. We hardly ever used cans except when baking for something, and then we were in the big kitchen. Maybe a sharp knife or bowl or measuring cups if you want to bring.)

    Plastic Tupperware containers- or you can buy them there but you’ll definitely need them. (I never used Tupperware containers. I don’t even know why you would need any. They are not necessary, and if you really want some, there stores that sell them in Israel.)

    If you don’t think you’ll like the taste of the water- and most of you probably won’t, bring some sort of ice tea mix to flavor your water because you NEED to drink in Israel, even when you’re not thirsty and it’s not a particularly hot day, you don’t realize how much stronger the sun is there, and I can’t even count the number of times friends of mine have fainted from not drinking because they weren’t thirsty. (In America suggested amount to drink is 8-10 cups a day, in Israel the suggested amount is 12-15)

    Earplugs: if you plan on going to bed one day before 1 am, and you’re not one of those people who can fall asleep at a concert then bring ear plugs- an eye mask is also convenient, because sometimes you’ll just need an early night, and your roommates might still need the light on….

    Journal Being back from my year in Seminary, it’s so much fun to sit and and read all the journal entries I wrote. It brings back so many fun memories!

    Fun games taboo, bananagrams, set…

    A calendar

    Extra watch

    A small hand held mirror is handy to have. For checking the back of your hair, or doing your make up when the big mirror is being used.

    You may want a clip on lamp for when the lights go out. Girls bought them there, did without, or used their flashlights to navigate the room. A small book light though would have been nice, for reading or writing when already in bed.

    A hot water bottle- with a nice fluffy cover!!!!!!!!! It was the best for those cold winter nights!!!!

    ‘School Supplies’

    For school supplies: either decide to go Israel all the way, or bring over ALL your stuff from America, which can be a shlep.

    They sell them in Israel but they are slightly more expensive so….Also, binders and paper-the loose-leaf paper in Israel has different holes so if you are going to bring your own binders then bring enough paper!

    Because of the amount of classes and the fact that we only had them once or twice a week, most girls found it more useful to have a binder with looseleaf and dividers because their notebooks didn’t get filled up. you can buy those in Israel or Americ, but anything you buy in America, you won’t be able to buy the same size/type in Israel if you need more or you change your mind.

    Notebooks are better to get from America because they’re cheaper- but not necessary to bring from home.

    Highlighters, pencils for marking things off in sefarim or whatever is a good idea. And I would suggest lead pencils with a large supply of lead.

    Whiteout in America works better (especially the pen kind) so if you are into whiteout bring a few bottles/pens.

    Scissors, Mini-stapler, paper clips, pencil case

    Blank paper of all varieties

    Tac, tape, permanent marker

    Folders They don’t sell folders in Israel. If they do, they are really hard to find and/or expensive.

    Fun Stuff!!

    Markers, crayons (If you like to draw bring a sketchbook, pencils and anything you like to use because Israel is great for sketching)



    Some extras to bear in mind

    Tishrei:white clothes, Non-leather shoes, Machzorim, enough elegant clothing for five days of YomTov/Shabbos during a week when you can’t do laundry

    Three day Yomim Tovim this year!!!

    Nisan: enough elegant clothing for five days of YomTov/Shabbos during a week when you can’t do laundry

    Rosh Chodesh clothing.

    Some small hostess gifts for Shabbos hosts (You can buy your host gift in Israel…. people usually buy candy or a cake)

    Sephardi girls may wish to bring a birkat hamazon with zemirot for in Shabbasos.


    Purse, wallet, credit card, passport, checks, student visa….Money

    ‘Things I should not have brought!’

    1. A desk-lamp. We had no desks in the dorm.

    2. Lots of sefarim. There are English-sefarim libraries in Israel.

    3. Even a very subtle Purim costume. Girls don’t dress up at all.

    4. A small plug-converter: pretty much everything I wanted to plug in required a big voltage-converter.

    Things to make sure you do before departure

    Book ticket!!! (And when you get it don’t lose it, my sister did and the day before she left it was crazy!!!-we finally found it in the garbage!)

    Make sure you have transportation from the airport. (If you are coming with the group flight, you will be met and transported to the dorm.)

    Figure out with your parents what you are doing about a credit card, cell phone, etc. and make sure you have it figured out before you go

    Get addresses and numbers of relatives and friends that you can stay at for Shabbos or that you need to visit at least once

    Come with a positive attitude and try to hang onto it during the first adjustment days. Kol haschalos kashos! But it is going to be the most awesome experience of your life!


    whoa candy! suddenly i feel so unhelpful 🙂


    1st of all there are websites where you can order stuff and it will be in your sem waiting for you- and it saves a LOT of space try blanket express- and there are 2 others I just forgot what they are called. They have everything and anything- and whatever you want can be given back at the end of the year and they give it to a gemach for kallahs, or you can leave it in israel for someone you know going the next year.

    do NOT bring- sefarim, notebooks, pens, etc!!!!!! its a waste of space!!!!! hangers, you can get there!! drawers etc you can also get there!!!!

    do bring: clothing-

    only like 2/3 skirts- out of the 6/7 you bring you’ll only wear the same 2/3 over and over again-

    shirts can bring anywhere from like 6-12

    sweaters you can wear more than once in a row since they are over the shirt- just make sure to let the sweater air out instead of stuffing it back in your closet.

    shabbos outfits- you really don’t need so many- like the skirts you’ll end up always wearing the same 2 or 3 that are pretty and comfy.

    shoes- do not bring heals!!!! bring 1 or 2 really comfy and durable pairs, but you can find there- try places like the mall etc.

    the rest of the clothes are pretty much self explanitory-

    shampoo and conditioner- get there!- unless you are using herbal essence or head and shoulders- which you can also get there.

    deoderant- get there- most ppl will recommend axe- even though its for guys its really good- and they have scents they dont sell here.

    laundry stuff- get there!

    girl stuff- bring! except makeup- if you run out there is a mac store- and blowdriers ect get from blanket express-

    food- a lot you can get there- especially in cheaper kol- or places where there are a lot of Americans- like arzei-

    basically pack clothes- get everything else there!


    also- go with a list of what you need to buy- that way you don’t get annoyed, or confused- that is the most common time to get homesick- when you suddenly have to fend for yourself. or if you know someone there- ask them to pick some of the stuff up for you before hand, or to show you the ropes!!! enjoy!!!! hope you have an amazing year!! 🙂


    You need to pack your sense of self and your values so that you will not be indoctrinated with beliefs that are not yours.


    k not much too add, i think e/o really covered it but a few comments from the peanut gallery…

    shabbos outfits-most pple end up wearing the same thing a few weeks in a row. if you don’t like the idea of doing that, you still should NOT bring a lot-that’s what roomates are for! several girls in my sem had an open closet policy, and on friday mornings four or five girls could be found by my roomates closet checking out the selection. by the end of the year, n/o even remembered which thing belonged to who (except for the owners) on that note- i know it sounds fifth graderish,but jsut hte same LABEL YOUR CLOTHES!!! they’ll get lost! nad if 5 girls have wet black medium bizes hanging up in the laundry room, you prob won’t know whose is whose… especially label shells!!!! when you share a load you don’t want to be stuck with that shell that neither of you is positive about!…

    re shampoo and stuff… it’s been said a bunch of times, but i’ll say it again-buy it there!!! if in the middle of the year you get fed up with the israeli brands cuz they aren’t working (not that i’ll mention names or anything) then you can buy certain american shampoos over there-and they’ll even have hebrew on em, so you won’t feel like your missing out! 🙂 but mousse, yah,

    bring rain boots! very essential item!

    make sure to have a few shirts besides tiyul shirts and button downs… unless you don’t mind button downs, in which case never mind. but if you do mind, you’ll def want a few shirts for vacations days or you ended class early or your goin out but it doesn’t warrant rosh chodesh clothing, but button downs/tiyul shirts won’t work


    if you plan on doing yam l’yam, bring really good sneakers!!!

    leggings! they are pretty impt to have on a tiyul climbing up a mountain/ladder/etc

    oh, also laundry can get expensive, so several girls and i bought a basin and hand washing detergent (i believe the label said “textile shampoo” to be exact) and did most of our laundry like that-it’s hot! things dry really really fast! and in the winter you can probably find some place to hang your things to drip dry.

    like candy said, a positive attitude, determination to make it work, and just remember-you’re all in the same boat! everyone else is pretty much just as confused as you are, even those that don’t show it… (you’ll be pretty shocked by some girls’ memories of the first few days-those you thought had it all together… well uh, didn’t);)

    b’hatzlacha! get ready for the most fantabulous year!

    Shopping613 🌠

    1sr of all candy613 they only allow one suitcase now so you should proboly condense that list a little


    I’m going to seminary this year and was wondering if anyone can help me figure out what kind of uniform clothes to bring. I bought nice long sleeve button downs but i don’t know if it’s better to buy cheap ones and cut the sleeves off and wear them with cardigans and sweaters. Do most people wear button downs by themselves or wear sweaters over their shirts? Also, my sem said “loose oxfords” but I didn’t want to look like a “box” so i got more fitted shirts, they’re not untznius or anything they’re just not extremely loose, is this okay?

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