January 21, 2022 11:23 am at 11:23 am #2053178philosopherParticipant
What I was extremely shocked to see was people excusing and whitewashing the abuser by saying that “he couldn’t control himself, we can’t judge him because we are not in his shoes, we won’t throw out his books because they contain good messages, etc.”. I was horrified to see the sympathy that this monster got.
No one can violate hilchos yichus, whether they have a degree or not. And people and children will generally be better off by not having access to psychologists and therapists on a steady basis. For the majority of people therapy stunts their internal growth.January 21, 2022 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #2053247
Here’s a question no one’s answered, many have purposely refused to answer, others skirted answering and some dug their head in the sand and claimed is never or almost never applicable:
What should be done to protect those falsely accused of abuse? And to insure they’re not hung out to dry and effectively murdered in public embarrassment and approbation even before any official conclusion of the allegation.January 21, 2022 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2053277
Parents should raise children such that they should not be afraid to speak their mind to them. Abused parents will abuse children. A parable to understand the Abarbanel on honoring parents is where a father provided a wooden plate to his father, afraid being feeble and break it. When the grandfather passed on, the father wanted to discard it. His son told him, father don’t throw it out we need it for you. Children see how their parents behave and tend to follow them. If you honor your parents, your children will honor you and thereby have long life.January 21, 2022 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #2053291
similar quote: a person who tells his son to learn Torah will raise a man who will be telling his son to learn Torah.January 21, 2022 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #2053305
Reb Moshe, ztz’l says to read veshinantom osom as veshinantem atem indicating that when we learn, our children, through seeing it, will also learn. I heard, הליכות עולם אל תקראו הליכות אלא הלכות, people learn how to behave from one’s behavior.January 21, 2022 2:24 pm at 2:24 pm #2053320philosopherParticipant
Rev Eliezer, I find your blanket statement “abused parents WILL abuse children” incredibly offensive, untrue and frankly disgusting. Every human being has a choice, a bechira. One of the foundations of Yiddishkeit is the knowledge of the fact that humans control their behaviors. There are wonderful parents (and adults) who were abused as children and there are abusive parents (and adults) who had wonderful parents. Stop perpetuating a lie. You are essentially saying that all victims of abuse are or will be abusers and that is a disgusting and totally untrue thing to say.
It is realistic to say that oftentimes abusers were victims of abuse themselves but it is not a guarantee that all, or even most, victims of abuse will become abusers themselves.January 21, 2022 2:50 pm at 2:50 pm #2053329
Phil, I misspoke, I did not mean a guarantee. I meant as you pointed out, a tendency.January 22, 2022 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #2053509
UJM. False accusations is not nearly as big of a problem as actual abusers. From time to time there may be a story but for a person falsely abused to take such drastic measures? I would not call that shechiach in comparison to the real issue at hand. If you think I am wrong please enlighten me. But, to answer your question, every shiur given on Lashon Hara and Motze Shem Ra is essentially what we do to ensure that does not happen. There are an infiniti number of “accusations” people can “accuse” others of. Falsely accusing someone or talking about someone who was falsely accused are just two examples.January 23, 2022 8:23 am at 8:23 am #2053625
User176: Can you repeat whatever message you were trying to say in plain English? I can’t make heads or tails out of you disjointed comment.
To restate my question:
What should be done to protect those falsely accused of abuse? And to insure they’re not hung out to dry and effectively murdered in public embarrassment and approbation even before any official conclusion of the allegation.
That’s all I’m asking. The rest of the commentary you can leave for another time. Please answer the question that was asked.January 23, 2022 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2053714
How do we know that one accused was falsely accused as people should know the great issur of motzei shem ra and its effects? Don’t we have to be suspicious?January 23, 2022 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #2053740
Reb Eliezer, are you suggesting that we should start off with the presumption that an accused is guilty until and unless he proves himself innocent?!January 23, 2022 3:31 pm at 3:31 pm #2053765
Look at sota. She acted questionably and she has to prove herself innocent. What caused the accusation to this individual?January 23, 2022 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #2053773Amil ZolaParticipant
Steps? Sure report to police and let the professional investigators interview victims and suspects and proceed with the investigation. It takes specialized training to objectively and sensitively investigate these allegations, training that is lacking in our religious schools.January 23, 2022 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #2053776
UJM. Shechiach means common. The issue you presented is uncommon and therefore not being addressed specifically. In plain English.
The larger issue that you are referring to is lashon hara, which is widely addressed.
If you want to know what happens after the lashon hara is spoken. Well we need to learn more about lashon hara.January 23, 2022 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #2053804AviraDeArahParticipant
Reb E, a sotah did an aveirah that is not in doubt. She has, to some degree, lost her chezkas kashrus because of yichud. That’s because the halacha follows rebbe Yehoshuah who holds in sotah 2a that we need 2 aidim for the warning and for the yichud. The tanna that shares your name, rebbe Eliezer, holds that one aid is enough for yichud (or even the husband himself seeing it) – maybe you’re shayach to his shoresh neshoma so your mind is going leshitaso, but lehalacha we need to establish some guilt of the sotah before trying her with the water.
In the case of an accused abuser, often there’s absolutely no raglayim ledavar, suspicious behavior, multiple accusations, or other indication… I have no idea how common it is for kids to make up stories, but i will say that as a rebbe I’ve heard kids half-threaten to accuse teachers including myself of abuse in order to het what they want or for revenge for a perceived injustice. I know lf at least 2 confirmed cases of this happening elsewhere.January 23, 2022 7:43 pm at 7:43 pm #2053813
User176: Like I said at the outset, you are skirting/refusing to answer and claiming it is virtually never applicable. That is called digging your head in the sand. You are creating a strawman to respond to rather than directly answering the very specific question that I asked. I did not ask how to prevent false allegations in the first place. I asked what to do about false accusations when they in fact do actually occur.
Your answer about giving Shiurim on Loshon Hora and MS”R to address false accusations is like if someone asked what should we do about abusers and you answered that to fix the problem of when someone abused someone that Rabbonim should give Shiurim that abuse is assur.
That’s the exact equivalent of your response. Giving Shiurim on L”H and MS”R is gevaldik and necessary. So is giving Shiurim not to abuse. But my question is what should be done to protect those who are already here and now falsely accused of abuse? To protect them from the false accusation and not penalize or embarrass in any way an innocently accused.January 23, 2022 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #2053888🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
User – kudos. Don’t waste your breath tho.m When people are talking about trying to prevent the ost horrific abuse and living gihenom of children and a poster can think of nothing but the adults involved he is obviously in it just to stir the pot. Unless he just has an odd affinity for pedophiles. I’m guessing the former.January 23, 2022 9:27 pm at 9:27 pm #2053939
I actually answered the question directly. Because that is the only answer. When dealing with abusers, they must be penalized. When dealing with accusers, they must be educated about the effects of their accusations. After all, all they did is spread a rumor. It is a grave sin, don’t misunderstand me. But a lav she’en bo maase nonetheless. As per the accused, well, it’s up to the people close to them who love them to give them guidance. I think that is obvious.
I would like to hear your suggested answer to your question.
Thank you Syag. Let’s hear what he has to say to answer his own question.January 24, 2022 1:54 am at 1:54 am #2054011
No, you certainly did not answer the question. You made up your own straw question to answer in order to avoid answering what was asked. I asked absolutely nothing about abusers. What I asked about was false claims of abuse. That’s all; nothing more.
“When dealing with accusers, they must be educated about the effects of their accusations.”
And similarly you merely say that when dealing with abusers, they must be educated about the effects of their abuse?
“I would like to hear your suggested answer to your question.”
My suggestion is to simply follow the Torah. The Torah tells us how to evaluate and judge the validity and invalidity of claims based upon the Torah’s and Halacha’s specified standards of evidence.January 24, 2022 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #2054289
Thank you UJM for restating my response in other words.
In truth, though, you have added nothing, because, “following the Torah” is a given. If you came here today with the grand Hidush of “follow the Torah” I applaud your sincerity but encourage you to seek further the root of the issue. Following the Torah is far too general and will likely get you no where.January 24, 2022 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2054299The little I knowParticipant
The consequences of being accused are very serious. Aside from those that involve the courts, the wreckage to someone’s reputation, employment, family, etc. are devastating. It’s not about protecting the molester. It’s about allowing the devastation to progress only where there is credibility to the accusation. Whether that gets proven by a court or otherwise, I don’t care. Those consequences are also dinei nefashos. And we cannot use statistics to pasken these questions. We need to have something verified. In reality, we do not need to commit all these devastating moves for the accused. We need to take any and all immediate steps to protect the victims and potential victims. This may mean suspending from a job or moving out of a home. But the publicity that leads to all the other consequences needs to based on verified information, not statistics.January 24, 2022 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #2054302
Avira, as a rebbe, you must agree that yeshiva boys must be educated of the great sin of motzei shem ra to accuse some one for abuse. Having them realize that it is not a game and the consequences it causes to the accused and the false accuser.January 29, 2022 10:07 pm at 10:07 pm #2055909
Daf Yomi Moed Katan 17 talks about this: a talmid chacham suspected of improper behavior with the ladies. Some suggest that we can’t put him in herem because we need him as a Rebbe in yeshiva! This follows with the conclusion that Rebbes need to be – and seen – as malachim. Otherwise, we don’t need them. So Rav Yehuda puts him in herem, and later when R Yehuda is dying, this guy shows up – to the delight of R Yehuda. The guy says – and you also laughing at me. R Yehuda explains that he is happy to show up in Olam Habo showing courage that he put this guy in herem, despite him being an important guy. At the end, after some other cases, gemora seems to suggest that we don’t want to publicize herms against T’Ch, it is better to just give them makos in private.January 30, 2022 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #2056141ari-freeParticipant
If people don’t want to accept professional standards and transparency then they don’t get to play the loshon hora card when it leads to problems.
and victims should always be encouraged to report directly to police just like someone who sees a drowning woman shouldn’t wait to ask a rav a shaila before trying to save herJanuary 30, 2022 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #2056206
next page in Moed Katan says that when someone is accused (possibly falsely), there was something there – either he did this avera before, or did it in part, or thought about it, or saw others doing it and did not object. Exceptions are when rumors are spread by enemies and when they are short-lived.January 30, 2022 10:26 pm at 10:26 pm #2056214GadolHadofiParticipant
The Gemara in Moed Katan is discussing one who is suspected of illicit affairs with women, not a sexual predator or a child molester like Chaim Walder.January 30, 2022 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #2056222
From cursory reading, gemora should fit any related sexual crimes. Did you see a reason not to?January 30, 2022 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #2056227Politically IncorrectParticipant
Always, the gemara was not written for cursory reading. You don’t make gemaras “fit” your agenda.
You could very well be right, that it is referring to all crimes of this nature, but I felt I had to respond to your word choice.January 31, 2022 12:32 am at 12:32 am #2056236GadolHadofiParticipant
A problem with Daf Yomi learning is that the schedule doesn’t encourage more than cursory reading and Gemara must be learned in depth to be applied to a specific situation. If you study the commentaries there you’ll see it’s not referring to a monster like Chaim Walder.January 31, 2022 1:38 am at 1:38 am #2056242AviraDeArahParticipant
One who is attempting to sexually abuse another person is a rodef.January 31, 2022 9:15 am at 9:15 am #2056264tunaisafishParticipant
> wonder why we still allow Carlebach’s songs in shuls, weddings, etc., considering that there has long been a big (and appropriate and correct) movement in the Centrist and Modern Orthodox worlds to ban his tunes from their prayer services etc
i was brought up never to listen to calbach and I am very strict about that in my house.January 31, 2022 9:20 am at 9:20 am #2056285
The RMA n YD 333 says that we put one in cherem without regard to the consequences by going OTD.January 31, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2056373
The above should be YD 334,3 but the Taz argues on the RMA considering the consequences of going out letarbus ra.February 1, 2022 12:51 am at 12:51 am #2056524
hey, guys, I said “from cursory reading” as a self-admission of guilt and hoping that someone else looked up into that. Stop beating me up. It is the first time I am doing the daf, first after watching the wonderful siyum with the kids (even after realizing that it was way limited in speakership), and then continued as it helps keep up at pandemic and shared it with kids – so that online learning does not become “do as I say, not as I do”. Before that, I preferred short masechtot so that I could finish in a year, and lose a hevrusa at a half the masechet.February 1, 2022 12:52 am at 12:52 am #2056525
on the substance, you should have no problem with R Yehudah: if he was so strict with a regular baal aveira, kal v’homer with worse cases.
Conclusion of keeping it quiet sounds problematic, maybe that is what you are pointing out. When I questioned that going back to R Yehudah, Rav suggested that maybe at R Yehudah’s time, people would understand this properly, but at later times, they would start thinking worse about Talmidei Chachamim in general. But, I think, the main thing we can take from the gemorah is that this is a trade-off: on one hand, we want to punish openly to show that we stand to the aveira and T’C; on the other – we don’t want people blame all T’Ch when they hear about such cases. If someone ealrned this sugya further, please share.
Note specifically comparison of Rebbes to Malachim – and rejection of “we need him to teach” in favor of “we do not need teachers like that”. This does not seem to be rejected at the end, only the public cherem. Would it be a leap to apply this notion to books of Torah that are same as teaching Torah? does not have to apply to science books, or fiction, or even Jewish songs.February 1, 2022 1:05 am at 1:05 am #2056529Politically IncorrectParticipant
Always, it is so amazing that you started the daf, especially that nekuda of your kids’ chinuch. I apologize for jumping down your throat at the wording. It is really great that you are able to learn through a daf every day!
Hatzlacha learning through shas!February 1, 2022 1:20 am at 1:20 am #2056540
PI, I do not like meaningless praise even less than undeserved abuse 🙂 I am frustrated at the daf speed: in person I was able to sabotage it a little with discussion, but it looks ruder on the zoom.
I think it is not so much the pace, but the monotone speed: famous lines and major issues deserve same attention as figuring out whether the mishna is according to R Yosi or not. I get it why the latter was important for the Gemora to develop halakhic patterns, and maybe even for someone in a semichah program, but I would rather spend more time figuring out implications for the modern life (as this is what Bavli is doing – developing a research method, according to Maharal that we discussed here months ago). I am trying to jump off the daf to research sugyot on a side but don’t always have time. That is why I am throwing provocative statements here sometimes – hoping someone will expand on the topic.
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