December 16, 2010 9:31 pm at 9:31 pm #593557
if you saw someone you knew doing something VERY inappropriateDecember 16, 2010 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #718685
Trying my bestMember
Give tochocho.December 16, 2010 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #718686
Shouldnt be hereMember
1) If you think they may pay heed to you speak up in a Torah appropriate way.
2) If they present a danger to others act in a Torah appropriate way.
3) If the 2 above don’t apply just go about your businessDecember 16, 2010 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #718687
post it on YWNDecember 17, 2010 12:11 am at 12:11 am #718688
That depends what it is. I would have to think a lot about it to figure out if I actually saw what I thought I saw or if I was jumping to conclusions. I usually think it is not by business and don’t jump to conclusions. My best suggestion is to stay out of it. Whether they are inappropriate or not, mixing in is also inappropriate. If you just can’t live with yourself speak to your Rav about it before you take it upon yourself to do anything.
The usual rule of thumb is if someone is doing something inappropriate in public they don’t care what other people think, so getting involved and mixing in will not help the situation. Giving tochecha to someone who doesn’t want to hear it and will not accept it is pointless and therefor only makes it worse so you are not allowed to do it. So maybe you jumped to conclusions and there is a viable explanation for what you saw or think you saw. So the best idea is to forget about it and don’t mix in. Let the people closest to that person and to the situation deal with it.December 17, 2010 12:27 am at 12:27 am #718689
you must say something!!! only thing is that if you do not have a relationship with them at all, then you are not suppose to. This is from the Vayg fin Shalayim sefer, I believe.
But why would you even doubt for a minute that its your obligation to “set them straight” and bring it to their attention if in deed you are close to them?December 17, 2010 12:46 am at 12:46 am #718690
Tell it to someone HE respects so that person will be able to confront him.December 17, 2010 1:54 am at 1:54 am #718691
Do they know you saw them? Do they know you personally? Was it in public? With other people?December 17, 2010 3:44 am at 3:44 am #718692
Very well said. Unless you think they’re going to listen, don’t say anything.December 17, 2010 4:57 am at 4:57 am #718693
aries hit it on the nail! dont bud in.December 17, 2010 5:30 am at 5:30 am #718694
Be sure that by giving tochacha will do justice, rather than makeing the situation worse off.December 17, 2010 8:20 am at 8:20 am #718695
sof davar hakol nishmaMember
Be sure that what you saw is real, and not a misinterpretation of anything.
I would daven for them.
If close enough and I know they will listen, I would give tochacha in a soft loving way, so that it would be accepted.
EDITED for spelling, punctuation, and capitalization.December 17, 2010 11:43 am at 11:43 am #718696
Your question is about as nebulous as it gets. What is inappropriate’ – Taking a towel from the Holiday Inn or running over someone?
Did you have something specific in mind.
EDITEDDecember 19, 2010 12:42 am at 12:42 am #718697
“I usually think it is not by business and don’t jump to conclusions. My best suggestion is to stay out of it. Whether they are inappropriate or not, mixing in is also inappropriate.”
I believe this whole “mind your own business” attitude has its roots solely in the permissive secular culture around us, and is not at all how the Torah would have us think. The Torah tells us “Kol Yisroel arevim zeh la’zeh” – “All of [Klal] Yisroel is responsible for each other”. Just like we must rescue a fellow Jew from physical or emotional harm, we must do our best to rescue them from spiritual harm as well.
Furthermore, the Torah tells us “hochaich tocheeach es amisecha” – “rebuke you shall rebuke my people”. We have a direct commandment – if you see something, say something. (Obviously this must be done in a way that will be effective and not just push the person further away, but it must be done nonetheless.) The passuk continues (“rebuke you shall rebuke my people,”) “v’lo sisa aluv chait” – “and you will not bear a sin”. However, if one could have stopped somebody from doing an aveirah but did not, they will have to give a din vi’cheshbon for it.
“The usual rule of thumb is if someone is doing something inappropriate in public they don’t care what other people think, so getting involved and mixing in will not help the situation.”
Not necessarily; the person simply may not realize what they’re doing is wrong. If somebody explains to them in a calm, polite way why what they’re doing is wrong, they may very well stop doing it.
“Giving tochecha to someone who doesn’t want to hear it and will not accept it is pointless and therefor only makes it worse so you are not allowed to do it.”
100% true. However, I don’t think we should always just assume that the person will take (correctly-given) mussar the wrong way.
“So maybe you jumped to conclusions and there is a viable explanation for what you saw or think you saw.”
Then the person will explain why they were doing what they were doing and (assuming that you were nice and polite) no harm done.
(PS – Please note that these are all calm, rational arguments about the issues that you have brought up. There is nothing here even vaguely reminiscent of a personal attack. Please, please let’s not have another wave of hysteria and accusations. Let’s stick to the issues, shall we?)December 19, 2010 3:20 am at 3:20 am #718698
psach libi bsorasechaMember
totally agree with aries. i would’ve written it, then i read exactly what i was thinking!December 19, 2010 5:16 am at 5:16 am #718699
Like aries said, make sure you actually saw what you think you saw. Once you have established that (and only after you do), ask a rav.December 19, 2010 6:05 am at 6:05 am #718700
Trying my bestMember
Agree with mw13 100%.December 19, 2010 6:40 am at 6:40 am #718701
shoot him.December 20, 2010 3:31 am at 3:31 am #718702
The Other GuyMember
Very well said mw13 (however id like to suggest limiting direct quotes from pesukim being that ik for a fact of individuals who read coffeeroom matzivs in the bathroom…thank you in advance for your cooperation :))
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