What’s Our Response to Environmentalists.

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  • #2159187
    1
    Participant

    Every month there’s a new environmental craze these liberals like to push in order to control everyone. What is the Frum response to ideas like climate change and carbon footprint? They’ve just said most plastic doesn’t get recycled, so basically it’s a waste of time to. If you would say that a year ago, you’d get canceled.

    #2159223
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    Here’s what you do: use as much plastic as you possibly can. Get as much plastic residue and microplastics into your body and your young children. I mean you don’t want your kids having healthy brains because they might start to think and possibly be concerned about the air they breathe and the food and water they consume. No, it’s much safer to just fill them up with plastic while you still can and so they won’t have healthy minds capable of rational thought. What could possibly be wrong with plastic? I mean, it just goes to a landfill and stays there right? It definitely doesn’t reenter our water and food supplies, and certainly doesn’t break into microplastics and fill the air. That would be insane!

    Go show those libs!

    #2159221
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Environmentalism is a good replacement for religious fervor for secularists. While people used to use their religion to drive their passion, they now turn to phantoms of “racism” and environmentalism

    #2159215
    ujm
    Participant

    My response is that I have one garbage can that everything goes into. I’ve never recycled.

    #2159324
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    R’ Yosef: In some jurisdictions, you would be drowning in your own trash since the trash and recycling trucks would refuse to empty that one beloved garbage can you are so proud of. Some of the local rules are crazy but there is no logical reason not to separate out waste that can be kept out of scarce landfill space and profitably recycled or used to generate steam and/or electricity in CHP plants.

    #2159318
    besalel
    Participant

    Our response is: ledidi, the passuk tells us in bereishis 8:22 that Hashem will control the climate for eternity but ledidaichu, at least be moideh to the fact that science tells us that the world is billions of years old and has always had hot streaks and cold streaks, hot climates and ice ages, many of which happened long before humans were even present so what makes you think that all of those climate changes over the millions and millions of years were natural and humans had no power to cause it or prevent it but THIS one is different?

    #2159285
    Kuvult
    Participant

    Proud to say the BY girls here engage in the same Tikkun Olam projects as the Reform & sometimes they do it together.

    #2159271
    Rocky
    Participant

    Our response in galus is to shut up. If a Jew (religious or not) asks what Judaism says about it then bring Torah sources to the best of your ability. If you don’t know any go to Aish.com or any reputable website that gives sources.

    #2159342
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Kuvult – yep, hischabrus im reshoim is something to celebrate.

    #2159341
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Rocky, unfortunately many online forums, particularly of the kiruv variety, traffic in misinformation, to use a modern term.

    Aish is extremely zionistic, moreso than mainstream israeli news outlets. It’s actually very embarrassing for us, because a jewish student who is disillusioned with zionism when they learn about der yassin and the other atrocities of the secular zionists, then they see “Orthodox judaism” whitewashing it… it’s doing us no favors.

    Kiruv places like to quote the same ridiculous “proof” of environmental activism that the RCA used years ago. Chazal say that Hashem took Adam all around gan eden and said “look how beautiful my creations are, take heed not to ruin my world”

    Do you know who has ever taken that medrash to mean physical destruction or pollution?

    You guessed it – zero.

    The seforim, including the ramchal and maharal, say it means that we shouldn’t destroy the world through sin.

    All throughout chazal and tanach, the one destructive force is sin. Not pollution. Not aerosols. Not greenhouse gasses.

    To say that these non-sinul entities destroy the world is like saying that the Holocaust happened because of mikrah, just nature.

    It’s apikorsus and denial of Hashem’s hashgocha, and denying that it is sin and mitzvos which benefit and destroy the world. Not what kind of car you drive.

    #2159444
    akuperma
    Participant

    1. There is no halachic issue. If you accept their theory about carbon emissions causing devastating global warming that will put everyone’s life in danger, we would have no halachic objections to their demands. If as they believe with a religious fervor, that the world is ending, halacha would support measures to prevent it. It is their underlying theory that is questionable.

    2. We have a longer perspective on history; our “memories” go back millenia, whereas most Americans go back decades, at most. Based on accounts of what crops grew where, it is clear that it was warmer in the past than it is today, particularly during the period of Bayis Sheini (the “classical period”) and the period of the Rishonim (the “high Middle Ages”). The goyim seem to be confusing routine climate and weather variations with a disastrous change in climate. When the environmentalists claim that their “science” asserts that there has been horrific warming since the late 18th century, they are choosing one of the coldest periods in human history as their “base”. They also ignore that the historic cold periods led to mass famines and migration of climate refugees is large numbers, often leading to acts of genocide, whereas the warm periods in the past were actually quite pleasant leading to higher food production and a flowering of civilizations. Note that even today, those with money go to Florida for the winter, rather than Alberta or Montana for the summer.

    3. There is a halachic dimension to be considered, in that the secular environmentalists seem prone to perceive whatever data they encounter as “proving” a pending “apocalypse” (note their similar response to Covid19), and this penchant for seeing a disaster behind every every data set is probably based on the Christian “bible”, leading to the idea that perhaps it is Avodah Zarah for Yidden to take such “apocalyptic” thinking seriously. We have been around a very long term, and by now we should trust Ha-Shem not to shmush us.

    #2159493
    Quayboardwarrior
    Participant

    I wonder why Jewish people have such a strong bias against environmentalism?

    #2159538
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Quayboard: Years ago, when I wanted to troll some of the more rabid “climate deniers” I would accuse them of being over the big Mitzvah of “Tikun Olam” for which they would lose their chelek of Olam Haboh (assuming the Olam Hazeh lasted that long). Invariably, aside from the cries of Kefirah and demands for a source in torah for this Big Mitzvah (No. 614) there was an underlying theme that even if specific actions (e.g. recycling) improved the environment and made economic sense, adopting such practices was either minhag hagoyim or simply encouraged more “extreme” demands from environmentalists (e.g. not paving over your front lawn to park 2 minivans or not trashing local parks during chol hamoed outings). Such demands were clearly anti-Semitic rants from self-hating yidden .
    The good news is that over the past decade there has been considerable progress in how the frum tzibur has adopted common sense environmental practices while pushing back against those who use “environment” as an excuse to deny yidden opportunities to expand their communities or attack our religious practices.

    #2159539
    Avram in MD
    Participant

    Shimon Nodel,

    Just curious why you assume that concern about microplastics and other toxins is a liberal issue?

    #2159563
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Quay, maybe it has something to do with it being against the emunah of Hashem running the world and punishing us due to sin and sin alone, and not due to driving SUVs?

    #2159748
    lakewhut
    Participant

    Shimon, the liberals often create new environmental issues when they try to restrict the use of one material by replacing it with others. They can’t do anything right. Ok don’t use fuel so use more batteries instead. It’s narish.

    #2159746
    besalel
    Participant

    Avira: but humans can destroy the world, there is no real question about that. We can use nuclear weapons, for example. The only real question is whether we are.

    #2159740
    GadolHadofi
    Participant

    Quay,

    For the same reason so many Jews are “biased” against the animal rights movement. From its outset, many in the environmentalist leadership have pursued the “rights of mother earth” (a Greek Goddess) with a dogma crosses the line into religious extremism. It’s one thing to feel a sense of responsibility towards Hashem’s creations but another to believe they have rights superseding those of humanity.

    #2159760
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    It’s unfortunate that people who are supposed to learn gemara are unable to distinguish between climate change and pollution. These are two separate things entirely. Specifically, plastic pollution destroys our bodies in more ways you can imagine. And plastic is literally ruining every aspect of our living conditions. It’s poison and it get everywhere! Go ahead and keep poisoning yourselves. Don’t worry, if you can’t notice any damage It’s probably because it’s already gotten to your brain. And of course you’re an apikores if you think poison is not a good thing

    #2159775

    We should of course care about the state of the olam haze that Hashem created for us. There are a lot of non-controversial things that we do: do not things away, fruit trees, city layout, not damaging property.

    The problem start with philosophies that make hard-to-prove claims that require, somehow, for money to flow from us to them. So, it then becomes entirely possible to pursue these goals at the expense of simple things we are required to do. Say, decrease population or at least have less kids to save the planet; close down nuclear and coal powerplants to increase dependency on Arabs and Russians.

    Bottom line, we are for environment – goodm healthy Jewish environment.

    #2159864
    Yserbius123
    Participant

    Good for them. Environmentalism does little to affect Jewish life in the short term (oh boo hoo, I have to put my bottles in a different can, and bring my own bags to the supermaket) but out of all things that goyim can get worked up over, this one is probably the most in line with the Torah and best thing for life in the long run. I don’t know about you folk, but I like the fact that these days it’s not unusual to see the night sky above NYC. That was not always the case.

    #2159869
    lakewhut
    Participant

    So instead of plastic straws let’s destroy all the trees to make paper straws which last maybe one drink before falling apart and then we all have less oxygen and food. Do you liberals think these ideas through before blindly following? Liberals don’t do anything right.

    #2159955
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Shimon, localized air pollution is an observable phenomenon, but your theories on the use of plastics is not proven.

    Aaq, it’s true that we’re not supposed to be wasteful, but the mitzvos of bal tashchis etc are to teach us to appreciate Hashem’s world, not that we’re baalei batim on it and that we have the ability to destroy or help it without it being Hashem’s will.

    #2159956
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    aaq, the apikorsus, unadulterated anathema of yiddishkeit that you so nonchalantly throw around, about decreasing the population in order to help the environment, made me make a double-take. You start out with mitzvos of bal tashchis…and you end up with denying the mitzvah of lesheves yatzarta and le’erev al tanach yadecha?!!?!?!?

    it is a mitzvah to have as many children as possible after fulfilling the minimum, chazal say this explicitly. the torah is NOT concerned with limited resources, because “hayad Hashem tiktzar?”

    And to prove it in physical terms that you might be more agreeable with in your heresy, scientists predicted mass famine if the population continued to increase in the 1960s.

    Well, the population more than doubled in the worldf since then…and guess what? There’s less world hunger now than ever before in recorded history!!! That’s Hashem’s way of showing how twisted, evil and anti-life the people are who subscribe to your heresy.

    #2160047

    Avira > the apikorsus, unadulterated anathema of yiddishkeit that you so nonchalantly throw around,

    Maybe I was not clear – I brought these as examples of perversions these ideologies take them, similar to Nazis and Commies – and to Christians before them – who committed their crimes in pursuit of “higher good”. As Russians are now saying to Ukrainians – “we need to kill you to save you”.

    #2160046

    Avira > that we have the ability to destroy or help it without it being Hashem’s will.

    this is nothing new and applies to everything. We go into business and deal with people whose only goal is money, into medicine where everyone feels they are in charge of health. So, you first make sure that your motivation is correct, protect yourself from bad influence, and then try to make them see the better side.

    #2160053

    And please don’t throw everyone with a pen into the same bin as “scientists”. Same as putting Rabonim and Reform Rabbis in the same “clergy” category.

    The klal is that the closer a researcher is to reality and experiment, the more yashar he is. Physicists are rarely know to fake nuclear experiments. Nuclear bomb worked as predicted … Satellites fly, GPS takes you to your destination without you even knowing how it is being done. It is worse when it comes to economics, and worse to obvious political areas.

    #2160055

    > the people are who subscribe to your heresy.

    cool down. As I said I am for environment, for good Jewish environment.

    #2160093
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Aaq, that wasn’t at all clear, it seemed that you were endorsing having fewer kids, or at least being pareve about it

    If you don’t accept that, then disregard what i said

    #2160136
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    It’s not proven?? That is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard recently. The evidence is all around and literally in front of you. Take your head out of your artscroll gemara for one moment

    #2160169
    ujm
    Participant

    Shimon: A far better idea would be for you to put your head in a Gemora, for once.

    #2160179
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Shimon, if there’s something in the world that requires me to get ky head out of a gemara, the dvar Hashem, and enter into the words of goyim reshoim, then I’d rather have my head in the gemara for as long as I’m able to, and I don’t have to worry about the tzar ham’nabayach, barking screaming evil doers who want there to be less life and who think that they control the world, for better or worse.

    As for evidence, when i was a kid, the scientists were saying that in 10 years, coastal cities would be submerged, there would never be any snow, and in 20 years life would all be destroyed. They made so many predictions that at least some of them happened, so they can point to them, ignore their false claims, and say “look, we were right!” And the masses gobble up their nonsense.

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