What's the Idea with College?

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  • #600971

    i love coffe
    Participant

    What’s the issue with college? Are people against going to college because they would be mixing with goyim? Or is it the idea of getting a higher education that bothers them? Would they even consider going to a Jewsih college?

    Sometimes I get the feeling that I am being looked down on because i’m going to college. (Maybe if I tell them i’m going to a Jewsih college they would think differently?) Yet at the same time there are other frum/yeshivish people going to college (Jewish college) with me.

    I feel like i’m getting mixed ideas here.

    I even know of people who won’t even send their kids to Stern or Touro. Why?!! They think it’s not where a religious person belongs. What does that mean?

    What’s the reason for all these ideas?

    #835470

    Bowwow
    Participant

    It is because they are narrow minded.

    #835471

    Bar Shattya
    Member

    This is a very different question for men and for women. It seems you are asking about women, but I’ll respond about men.

    Perhaps the answer is that there just isn’t enough time or money, kind of like why some guys have never been to yeshiva in Israel. Its a great idea, but nobody has time to do every great idea. Its a matter of priority.

    #835472

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    Every person has a different derech hachaim. Some people need college in their lives, some people manage without. If a person who doesn’t need to go to college thinks you are irreligious for needing to, then they’re just silly. Likewise, if you think they are narrow-minded and cloistered for doing as they do, then YOU are silly. Secular colleges are a different kettle of fish, but you still won’t become automatically irreligious by going to one. Bottom line? What matters is how well you know yourself and what your parents/rav/mentor say.

    #835473

    sam4321
    Participant
    #835474

    i love coffe
    Participant

    Bar Shattya- Would these same guys that have their priority on something else other than college let their future wives/daughters go to college if they could afford it?

    “Perhaps the answer is that there just isn’t enough time or money…”

    Or that maybe because they are lazy. There are plenty without money that get into college because of good grades. There are also many student loans and free money going around for college. Maybe at the moment it’s not worth your time but in the future you will surely be glad you went to college.

    Although I agree that not everyone can afford a year in Israel and college, where there’s a will there’s a way.

    #835476

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Rav Nisson Alpert was a Rov at YU

    #835477

    miritchka
    Member

    This issue bothers me too. I believe college is important and should be an option to all. Why would a BY or Yeshiva discourage their students from going?! I understand that its mixed (although i believe touro has seperate nights, not sure though) or that you’ll have to learn about things that they wouldnt teach you in a BY or Yeshiva. But hey, is the BY or yeshiva agreeing to help pay bills?! Are thye goign to make up the difference that a boss would pay to hire someone with a degree than someone without?

    One of the reasons BY and Yeshiva is there is to teach the child torah and show them the right way. They shouldnt dictate a persons life, they should encourage the right way and show them the positive way to go about things. If a BY or Yeshiva is worried about a child changing because of college, could it be that they arent doing a good job?!

    #835478

    Jothar
    Member

    J____ used to post against college. Turned out we were both in Touro! Lolz.

    Still not sure if the views he espoused on college were what he really held, and only went due to parental pressure.

    #835479

    kollel_wife
    Participant

    There are those that are against Stern or Touro, but not a Cope course or similar.

    Why is that?

    1. Some people are very concerned about what seviva that are in. They would want to go to school with like-minded girls whose standards in Yiddishkeit and tznius match their own upbringing. They would not find the male-female socializing between YU and Stern acceptable.

    2. Some people would not like to be exposed to the anti-Torah values of the outer society especially when learning psychology, counseling or social work or similar subjects.

    3. They want to learn something very specific such as accounting/computer programming without wasting time having to get a “well rounded” education.

    #835480

    In the majority of places of business men and women work together. So what is the excuse going to be then? Not get a job.

    Even if you open your own business you are still going to have to mix with females eventually, either with a supplier, distributor, or customer…

    #835481

    Health
    Participant

    miritchka -“This issue bothers me too. I believe college is important and should be an option to all. Why would a BY or Yeshiva discourage their students from going?!”

    Because it’s against their Haskofah!

    “One of the reasons BY and Yeshiva is there is to teach the child torah and show them the right way. They shouldnt dictate a persons life, they should encourage the right way and show them the positive way to go about things.”

    That’s part of their job -telling what to do in life!

    “If a BY or Yeshiva is worried about a child changing because of college, could it be that they arent doing a good job?!”

    Maybe telling kids to stay away from college is their Job?

    I’m not against college personally, but at least I understand their point of view!

    #835482

    Sam2
    Participant

    Kollel_wife: Just curious, but what male/female socializing do you think there is at YU? No one at Stern or YU is ever forced to see someone of the opposite gender.

    #835483

    akuperma
    Participant

    You primarily go to college to get a job. Most careers today require a education of the sort offered in colleges. Most of the jobs that don’t require college are usually low in pay, or otherwise undesirable. Sometimes you use a college to learn a skill (such as a foreign language, computer programming, etc.). If you don’t like mixing with goyim, try an online college.

    #835484

    kollel_wife
    Participant

    My memories go back many years. I had some friends in Stern. Thursday nights, I think it was, the Stern lobby was filled with boys. There were also parties that took place at YU. Are things different today?

    #835485

    Sam2
    Participant

    There can be boys waiting in the lobbies, but nothing requires a girl to be in the lobby or interact with them at all. There are never really co-ed parties on campus (technically I think girls can show up to watch the Super Bowl, but I doubt many do). What guys and/or girls do and who they invite to their own apartments isn’t really something the school has a say in. Girls/guys are only allowed in the lobbies of all of the dorm buildings, nowhere else (with the exceptions being the guys’ cafeteria and gym for sporting event, which are in the basement of one of the buildings).

    #835486

    kollel_wife
    Participant

    The OPs question was

    “I even know of people who won’t even send their kids to Stern or Touro. Why?!! They think it’s not where a religious person belongs.”

    Sam2 you’ve just answered her question.

    Many Bais Yaakov girl’s will not put themselves in an environment where there is socializing between boys and girls (men and women) whatsover. Not just not to participate, but to be in such an environment. This is the derech they believe to be correct following their rabbonim and mechanchos.

    They will be very selective in choosing a work environment as well. Many will only consider a job in a girls school or in an office where the interactions between men and women are distant and formal. They would most definitely not work in a place where there are any single, frum young men.

    #835487

    MichaelC
    Member

    Rabbi Falk says it says in the Talmud ‘all your money is fixed from Rosh Hashona to Rosh Hashona’ , except Shabbos and yom tovim and torah learning which is not fixed.

    If you think by putting yourself into a nisayon is good for the sake of money-listen to Rabbi Falk..

    #835488

    Jothar
    Member

    There used to be many more high-paying unskilled jobs when the teshuva was written. Automation, technology and outsourcing have killed many of them. Today, even having a college degree is no guarantee, but it sure beats the alternative.

    #835489

    Sam2
    Participant

    Kollel_wife: Will your daughters walk to a store? After all, a sidewalk and a store are both places where men and women socialize. You can go to Stern or YU and almost never see a girl/boy. It is done by many Frum and Erlich people. The lobbies of each building where people can interact are avoidable. Someone can enter the building and go straight to their rooms without entering them.

    #835490

    i love coffe
    Participant

    “2. Some people would not like to be exposed to the anti-Torah values of the outer society especially when learning psychology, counseling or social work or similar subjects.”

    So here is another question: Lets say that someone has gone through a really hard time in life and needs a counselor or a psychologist to talk to. Would you send this person to go see someone like a psychologist? Or are you going to be scared of the anti-Torah values they would give?

    Disclaimer- I am not trying to mock anyones view or hashkafah. I am just really trying to understand these different views that people have about going to college. What if there was an all girls college? What if there was an all boys college? No interaction with the other gender what-so-ever. Then would you go?

    I’m just trying to understand more so I can make myself a better person and yid and make the right choices.

    #835491

    SaysMe
    Member

    just a point: A work environment is usually more focused on work, than people roaming around between classes, looking to chat.

    i love coffe: do u agree that a jewish psychologist would be first choice? I would be scared of the anti-Torah values.

    #835492

    Sam2
    Participant

    I love coffee: Rav Moshe has a T’shuvah where he says that you can only go to a therapist that would only give help/advice that agree with Torah values.

    #835493

    i love coffe
    Participant

    SaysMe- Yes, I would pick a Jewish psychologist. But this Jewish psychologist had to go to college first. Here is my problem. If this Jew goes to college, eveyone is looking down on him. They will ask, “why isn’t he in Yeshiva?” But the moment they need a psychologist they would go running after him… (Double standards?)

    I say that yes people’s first priority is to go to Yeshiva. But if someone decides he wants to become a doctor, lawyer, etc. and go to college, then people should congratulate him. He is going to start learning to provide a service for you, your community… Start naming a couple of your doctors, lawyers, teachers, and see how many of them are Jewish. I’m sure you are thanking them so you wouldn’t have to go to a goy and you can deal with someone you trust.

    #835494

    I will advocate that all my children go to university. I will do my best to steer them in a direction, where a good education will lead them to meaningful careers (Accounting, Law, Medicine, Finance).

    My children will be self sufficient and earn incomes that will allow them to send their kids to Yeshiva and thus be able to Pay the FULL Tuition.

    They intern, teach their children the value of education, career, making a good living and becoming self sufficient.

    I will have enough confidence in them and their Jewish Education, that they will make the right decisions and act accordingly at all times.

    I will not shelter them and create fear in order to keep them suppressed…

    They will balance Work, Family and Learning just like their father and Grandfather(s) before them….

    #835495

    Health
    Participant

    i love coffe -“They will ask, “why isn’t he in Yeshiva?” But the moment they need a psychologist they would go running after him… (Double standards?)”

    In a way it is a double standard; and in a way it’s not. It’s not because they would just say no one should go to college and I’ll use an Ehliche Goy for my Doc, shrink, etc. But if a Jew became one already and is basically Frum -I’ll use him.

    (Remember, this is what they’d say, not necessarily what I personally hold.)

    #835496

    miritchka
    Member

    Health: to answer the points you made:

    -I understand that a BY or Yeshiva may hold its not a good idea to go to college. But in this day and age, when most men and women have to work to pay the bills, wouldnt a good yeshiva or BY teach and engrave the middos and hashkafos that the girl/boy should have to be able to go to college or at work.

    -To my knowledge, a BY or yeshiva is there to teachtorah, to teach middos, to teach how to behave when they do leave the BY/Yeshiva setting. Not to dictate. If one goes to a chassidish school, say the gerrer (sp?) yeshiva, yes there they teach one specific way of life. But your average BY, say Bais Yaakov of BP, its for all types of frum girls. I dont know if I’m making sense, do you understand what i mean?

    #835497

    Health
    Participant

    miritchka -“I understand that a BY or Yeshiva may hold its not a good idea to go to college. But in this day and age, when most men and women have to work to pay the bills, wouldnt a good yeshiva or BY teach and engrave the middos and hashkafos that the girl/boy should have to be able to go to college or at work.”

    No, that’s your fundamental mistake -they HOLD it’s Ossur to go to college, nothing to do with good or bad idea!

    “To my knowledge, a BY or yeshiva is there to teachtorah, to teach middos, to teach how to behave when they do leave the BY/Yeshiva setting. Not to dictate.”

    Yes to all of the above, but they dictate when they teach Torah.

    So they will dictate to those in their schools -that it’s Ossur to go to college!

    #835498

    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    God runs the world. God feeds the world. The Maharal writes that in a utopian world (or like Adam Harishon kodem hachet) there would be no need to work at all because of the perfect level of Bitachon in the world. Hishtadlus (which in its intellectual essence is k’fira) is only a necessary evil to the degree in which we have lost our Bitachon, and should be used temporarily with the goal of strengthening our Bitachon in mind. That said,the main question of ideology is whether college is a necessary Hishtadlus toward making a living. There is no objective answer to that because it depends on the level of subjective Bitachon and the amount of money needed. Yeshivos and BYs focus on trying to increase the level of Bitachon in their students (as they should). Whether people that say they have Bitachon are being truly intellectually honest and consistent throughout their lives is a different question.

    #835499

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    One should have bitachon, but you dont have the right to go in the middle of the BQE and expect Hashem to save you.

    You should do everything you can to make sure you are able to make a good living.

    #835500

    OneOfMany
    Participant

    frumnotyeshivish: Nice post.

    Just want to add one thing: it’s certainly nobody’s business to comment on what level of bitachon someone else is on.

    #835501

    happiest
    Member

    sam2- there is a bus between Stern and YU so while they might not encourage mingling, they are enabling them to do it.

    Personally, I’m not a big fan of Stern because I’ve heard that their are a lot of things that happen in the background with the girls. I’m sure this happens in most places but I’ve specifically heard it in reference to Stern girls. (Btw- I have a family member who is a major major person in the Stern/YU administration so I’m not saying it without knowing nothing about the school.)

    #835502

    miritchka
    Member

    Health: I went to one of those kinds of schools where they dont encourage college. I never went, but not because they said so. Many of my friends got their degrees through sara schneirer, raizel wright, and some did go to college. Yes, you’re right that my school was one of those that hold its assur, but the bottom line is that many, if not most girls, go to college or work in a differnt kind of environment. My point is that the BY and Yeshivos should prepare their students of how to behave in those environments. Even if they hold its assur, they should be teaching their students how to live the way that they were taught in this confusing world.

    Thanks for your input!

    #835503

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    @miritchka I went to a modern orhtodox School, but for College I went to a secular college and I can tell you the first semester was a big of a culture shock and took some adjusting.

    Its better to have this shock at a college in your freshman year than on the job

    I did graduate from this secular college (as did many frum people)

    #835504

    tahini
    Member

    I teach in a big multi ethnic university and notice there is a huge change between the earnest young frum freshmen and the self assured person who graduates. They learn to set boundaries and judge each situation on its own merit, a really important skill when it comes to working in a mixed workplace, both in terms of gender, religion and culture. Learning when to say” no thank you” politely is a really important frum Jewish skill.

    #835505

    miritchka
    Member

    zahavasdad: Like i mentioned before, i believe college is important and should be an option to all. I didnt go for my own reasons. I went straight to work, in a Frum company. It was a culture shock to me too and that is the reason i believe that schools should prepare their students for the big and scary world we live in.

    #835506

    Health
    Participant

    miritchka -“My point is that the BY and Yeshivos should prepare their students of how to behave in those environments. Even if they hold its assur, they should be teaching their students how to live the way that they were taught in this confusing world.”

    I understand your way of thinking, but the schools can’t go along with that because then they would be hypocrites. They’re screaming college is Ossur, but they will teach – this is the way to handle it when you are there. They don’t want anybody to think that they aren’t practicing what they preach. Even if the reality is people go -they are on their own. They won’t prepare them for such an eventuality!

    #835507

    miritchka
    Member

    Health: “They’re screaming college is Ossur, but they will teach – this is the way to handle it when you are there.” This is true, however, i meant that these schools should prepare their students for how to face the real world. Not necesarrily college itself, rather the workfield, or just every day things. These girls and boys are going away from the closed environment of their schools and are ‘on their own’ sort of.

    #835508

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What gets me for those who claim ASSUR is they many not even know what classes are actually taken.

    Of course there are courses like comparative religions are other courses perhaps a frum person should not take, but most courses someone will take are pareve.

    What is Treif about stuff like math, computer Science Physics , chemistry , Biology (If you take out evolution or Big Bang Theory which is only a small part of the sylabus) the rest is totalyl kosher, Since I took Physics I can tell you its mostly equations, and stuff like gravity.

    I also took liberal arts especially American History and exactly what is Treif about learning about this great country that we all live in the Freedom to practice our religion as we see fit.

    I will not comment on stuff Like Psychology as I am not interested in that and did not take that.

    #835509

    Health
    Participant

    zahavasdad – Most colleges require Psch. I had to take it. A lot are now requiring philosopy and gender equality (Women studies). These classes are problematic.

    #835510

    i love coffe
    Participant

    I’m wondering if it would be problematic to take psychology in a Jewish college. Any problems with it?

    #835511

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I didnt take philosophy or gender studies either nor do I know many people who did.

    BTW didnt The Ramabam study Philosophy

    #835512

    Toi
    Participant

    they will turn you in to a carrot. and being a carrot isnt fun.

    #835513

    i love coffe
    Participant

    sorry toi, but what does it mean to be “a corrot”?

    #835514

    Health
    Participant

    i love coffe -“I’m wondering if it would be problematic to take psychology in a Jewish college. Any problems with it?”

    Sorry, I don’t see a problem with Psych from any college.

    #835515

    i love coffe
    Participant

    Health- “Sorry, I don’t see a problem with Psych from any college.”

    What do you mean health? Aren’t there a lot of things that go against Torah in psychology or am I just making this up?

    #835516

    Health
    Participant

    i love coffe – That was the olden time psychology. Purely Freudian. A lot of people held this was Apikursos. Nowadays they teach many different theories and there isn’t a problem. Did you ever wonder why there are so many Frum MSW’s & Psychologists? You didn’t think they all did Aveiros by going into their choice of career, did you??!!?

    #835517

    i love coffe
    Participant

    Of course not! Im just assuming that they went to a Jewish college where a lot of anti-Jewish stuff was censored. Thanks for the info. I’m going into psychology myself but was rethinking it from all the stuff I was hearing about psychology and being anti-Torah.

    #835518

    You go to college to get a job. I happen to love college and want to work in that environment… to each their own. My very close friend went to a Chasidish program; that was what she needed.

    Don’t compare yourself to others, Hashem wants you to do a job that makes you happy. “tiferes lo vtiferes lo min haadam”

    #835519

    Mike Hall:that sounded like your Mission Statement. 🙂

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