April 23, 2012 1:31 pm at 1:31 pm #603060
From a number of responses I received to my recent threads it appears that “falling in love” is the norm.
Is this the Torah way?
I believe not.April 23, 2012 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #870318CsarMember
The proper way is to look for middos, ehrlichkeit, talmid chochom (or bas talmid chochom).April 23, 2012 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #870319BowwowParticipant
The Torah way is to send a servant or go yourself to a foreign land and approach a well of water……take it from there….April 23, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #870320
TO Csar Most people say that they love the other`s middos ehrlichkeit etc… and at the end of the day they have still fallen in love without realising it.
What can one do about that?April 23, 2012 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #870321
Even if a person should only consider someone with decent qualifications, you don’t marry just anyone you consider. You marry someone you connect to. Yes, I believe being “in love” is a concept that the Torah quite clearly recognizes. Marriage doesn’t necessarily need the highest level of it, but it’s important that it be there on some level. Marriage is not a business arrangement.
Where do we see the Torah recognizes it? For one, in every single mashal in which the mashal is of a man and a woman. It is so obvious that the ideal marriage in the Torah’s train of thought is one where the couple is “in love.”April 23, 2012 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #870322Sam2Participant
See Rashi Kesubos 7a (I think) S.V. Rei’im Ha’ahuvimApril 23, 2012 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #870323
TO yitayningwut Correct one needs to have feelings towards the other.One needs to feel that one is “in love” with being together with the other.
But “falling in love” is to imagine that this feeling is considered “loving the other” as wanting to give to the other their needs whether its convenient or not.This is a grave mistake as I point out in my other thread.April 23, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #870324
It is Rashi Kesubos 8a(close) S.V. Rei’im Ha’ahuvim
not falling in love does not mean not loving the other as explained to yitayningwutApril 23, 2012 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #870325ChortkovParticipant
wasn’t yackov the first to fall in love at first sight – ‘vayeehav yaakov es rochel… veyenashkehu…’ see droshus HaRan that all neshika is peh lpeh…April 23, 2012 7:22 pm at 7:22 pm #870326MCPMember
I can’t speak for the Torah, but the Gemara’s way involved the girls dancing in the street and all the boys watching and choosing…April 23, 2012 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #870327apushatayidParticipant
Rent a venue where girls are interviewed by b oys mothers and the mothers will choose the appropriate shidduch for their son.April 23, 2012 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #870328OneOfManyParticipant
It depends on what exactly you’re calling “falling in love.” Obviously your conception of this thing matches up with something you regard as unhealthy. Chances are the people who are supporting this concept have a different conception of it.April 23, 2012 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #870329writersoulParticipant
Bowwow: Hey, that was my line! 🙂April 23, 2012 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #870330ItcheSrulikMember
Go to a well.April 23, 2012 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #870331
Love does not (primarily) mean a commitment to give. Love is a feeling. As I linked to yungerman on the other thread (maybe no one clicks on links), even the word ahava means this. I don’t believe the Torah’s usage of ahava refers to some altruistic notion, because then it would be absurd to say that Shechem had ahava toward Dinah or Amnon to Tamar. Ahava is Shir HaShirim. It is what we call love, in it’s purest and most basic sense, the thing with all the songs and cliches about it.
Love is a feeling which – like all feelings – can be misused. One can lose their senses when they are angry and say or do the wrong things. Love is the same way. Instead of saying that people shouldn’t fall in love, you should say that people should learn to keep their heads on straight and remain balanced even when they are in love. That, to me, is a lot closer to what the Torah is interested in.
Looking back it seems that you might agree with all this and just have an issue with the phrase “falling in love.” That’s really splitting hairs though. Why not just make your point without going all out against a particular way of speaking? (OneOfMany may have been saying this.) It would be more effective that way.April 23, 2012 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #870332Sam2Participant
Thanks Awareness. I always say that I’m usually off by 3-5 Blatt or less when I cite something, but I always get the side of the page right.April 24, 2012 12:09 am at 12:09 am #870333147Participant
The Torah way to marry is to use a religious website such as Orthodate or/& Frumster, and not to waste big bucks on Shadchonus, nor to unnecessarily overburden already busy Shadchonim.
This also circumvents the issue of putting all potential Shidduchin on hold for the entire summer, because it is not the Torah way to leave singles languishing for 2 months +, when having fun in the country. Religious websites don’t take 2 months vacation breaks during the summer.April 24, 2012 2:06 am at 2:06 am #870334
The Torah way to marry is… not to waste big bucks on Shadchonus
Clearly you are unaware of the fact that the shadchanus business is at least close to a thousand years old. There are plenty of responsa about it (Choshen Mishpat questions, who gets paid in this case or that etc.).April 24, 2012 8:50 pm at 8:50 pm #870335oomisParticipant
The TANACH and stories of our Gedolim show us a variety of ways in which people met their zivugim, i.e., through a shadchan (Eliezer), by meeting on their own in a public place (Yaakov Avinu and Moshe Rabbeinu), by growing up literally as the girl next door (Adam and Chava), by yibum (Rus and Boaz), by chance encounter and physical attraction (Dovid Hamelech and Batsheva), at work (again Yaakov Avinu, and also Rabbi Akivah and Racheyl), etc. etc. There is no one Torah way. There is only a Torah LIFE.April 24, 2012 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #870336
Oomis, I agree with you. I’m not one of those people who say everyone has to get married through a shadchan. I was just responding to 147 who seemed to imply that there is something un-Torahdig about shadchanus.April 24, 2012 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #870337bein_hasdorimParticipant
“FALLING” in anything is not good. Nuff said.April 24, 2012 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #870338WolfishMusingsParticipant
There is no one Torah way
Heh. I’m reminded of one poster on these boards who insisted that my marriage is somehow improper and that I have to divorce my wife because we met on our own and didn’t use a shadchan.
The WolfApril 24, 2012 10:13 pm at 10:13 pm #870339hudiParticipant
Send out your manservant on a donkey to find a wife from your family
I agree with you though, “falling in love” is not the way.
Bowwow- I just saw your post…
yitayningwut – there is a difference between being “in love” and “falling in love.” The latter sounds very transient and baseless to me.
Yekke- I think the “love” that our avos had is not the “love” that we understand today. He may have saw her neshama and “loved” what he saw.
oomis1105 – very well put.April 24, 2012 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #870340bein_hasdorimParticipant
Putting up a billboard with ur name, age, height, weight, bank account amount, future plans, and of course facebook page. Duh!April 24, 2012 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #870341
there is a difference between being “in love” and “falling in love.” The latter sounds very transient and baseless to me.
I prefer discussing ideas, not word choices. But that’s just me.April 25, 2012 1:26 am at 1:26 am #870342hudiParticipant
The choice of words helps you express what you are trying to get across. The right choice of words is important to make sure your ideas are not misunderstood.April 25, 2012 2:45 am at 2:45 am #870343147Participant
Correct Hudi, but don’t forget that all important picture/photograph which is worth 1000 words.April 25, 2012 3:25 am at 3:25 am #870344dhl144Member
you hav to make sure that in your eyes the person has a nice personality that you agree with… you have to make sure your goals are the same….want to raise the same type of family. Love is not the means of a marriege one mustn’t be unattracted but love isn’t a big factor. It’s more to “like” and love is a lifetime of work after a marrieg that is when love is built between a couple when you hold each other up through pain and hardchips when you are happy together when you put all your might to conquer whatever tests Hashem may throw at you. When you work tirelessly to raise children together….as all this is done thats what results in generating love between two people.
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