What's with left wingers and geirus

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  • #614392
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Why are they so into it? Why is it a left wing cause to want to make geirus easier?

    Is it just part of looking for kulos generally? It doesn’t seem that way to me–it seems more like a cause.

    I have some theories. I’ll come back and post them later, if I feel like it.

    #1045664

    Left wing goes with liberalism. Liberalism goes with everyone being able to do what they want. When taken to an extreme a least. And if someone wants to be jewish, chas veshalom that hakacha should actually be followed! Its all about putting the peoples needs before God.

    #1045665
    akuperma
    Participant

    The Israeli left-wingers are fanatic zionists in the original meaning of the word (non-zionists lefties leave Eretz Yisrael as soon as they can). As good zionists they want Israel to be a normal state, which do someone whose focus is Europe, means there is a national religion in which everyone is a nominal members (note that piety isn’t a factor, this is a matter of patriotism). While they can tolerate a few non-Jews who are members of other religions, they want all non-Palestinian Israelis to be Jewish. Thus is someone wishes to be a good zionist, i.e. a patriotic Israeli, that is good enough for them to be Jewish. Their model would be the historic desire of many immigrants to join the established church, not out of a theological belief, but out of the desire to be normal. That’s good enough for them To the leftists, all the “Torah” stuff went out when Herzl and Ben Gurion replaced Avraham Aveinu and Moshe Reabbeinu, and they object to tying geirus to ideas that most Israelis have long rejected.

    #1045666
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It’s about legitimacy. They need to assert some type of control or influence in being able to decide who is Jewish in order to feel legitimately Jewish.

    #1045667
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Akuperma, what about in chutz laaretz?

    #1045668
    yytz
    Participant

    The gerus bill would decentralize gerus, allowing local batei din (outside of the Rabbanut) to process gerim. This is how it used to be anyway, so it’s not like it’s a fundamental change. It would also benefit chassidim and other groups who prefer to use their own rabbis instead of going through the bureaucratic channels of the Rabbanut.

    The left likes to make changes that would make gerus less hard because of 1) universalism — those on the left are more likely to see Yiddishkeit as something of more universal appeal to all of humanity, rather than the teachings of an insular minority that doesn’t care about the world, 2) sympathy for left-wing religious rulings (such as those of R’ Uziel and others) that allow gerus to be completed even without the ger becoming completely observant, 3) a desire to make life easier for Russian immigrants who aren’t halachically Jewish but have Jewish ancestry and a Jewish identity and served in the IDF, 4) a desire to undercut the increasing control of the Rabbanut (and thus Israeli society, in some respects) by the charedim.

    #1045669
    monroeyidd
    Member

    Akuperma well said

    #1045670
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    So I theorize it’s because they’re uncomfortable with the ethnic/racial element of Judaism. That is, that Judaism is an ethnicity, and holds that G-d chose that ethnicity above the other peoples of the world.

    #1045671
    Chochom-ibber
    Participant

    The more they’re megiaer the more people they can influence about their (non)religious beliefs. They obviously don’t have a chance with us so 2nd best; bring in a new crop. They’ll have more people following their shittas, turning to their Rabbis thereby validating themselves. It helps them sleep at night.

    #1045672
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m still waiting for Goq to ask what centers and defensemen think about geirus.

    #1045673
    akuperma
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba: “they’re uncomfortable with the ethnic/racial element of Judaism. “

    I believe they are uncomfortable with the religous element of Judaism. Gairus is basically naturalization. When you become a citizen you give up your previous loyalty, adopt the culture of the new country. In “normal” countries (US, France, Britain), becoming a citizen does not require you to adopt a religion. Frum Jews regard being Jewish as a matter of religion (being Jewish is about mitsvos), and secular Diaspora Jews see Jewishness as ethnicty (being Jewish is about gefilte fish and bagels), whereas zionists see being Jewish as being about being a loyal supporter of the State of Israel which is why they want the process of becoming an Israel, which includes geirus, to focus on zionism rather than Torah.

    #1045674
    writersoul
    Participant

    PBA: ?

    How can a religion that has any mechanism at all for conversion possibly be an ethnicity? (Or, alternatively, how can it stay an ethnicity, however it may have started out?)

    #1045675
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    writersoul: I’m not sure I get your question. It quite practically is an ethnicity, and has in fact stayed so for 3000+ years.

    Because there are relatively few converts.

    The same way any other ethnicity occasionally absorbs outsiders but retains its identity.

    #1045676
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Akuperma, the original German Reformers went out of their way to deny the existence of Jewish ethnicity. They defined themselves as Germans who followed the Hebrew faith. They called their synagogues temples because they denied any ethnic connection to the Jerusalem temple

    #1045677
    Joseph
    Participant

    I believe PBA and akuperma are both correct and their points are not mutually exclusive.

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