May 1, 2011 2:22 am at 2:22 am #596550
thanksMay 1, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #763722
truth be toldMember
First clarify the halocha about “shok b’isha ervah” – whether it means between the ankle and knee or knee and above (which wont have any affect on length of skirt, since that’s due to a different reason of pissuk raglayim).May 1, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #763723
You’re assuming stockings are required…
okay, round one: BEGIN!May 1, 2011 2:46 am at 2:46 am #763724
okay so let’s say we say that the ‘shok’ is from your knee to your ankle.. why are they allowed if they need to be covered?May 1, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #763725
In Rabbi Falk’s sefer, Oz vHadar Levusha, p329-330, he states that “see through tights are unacceptable because when such tights are worn, the legs remain fully visible and even more attractive than legs that are not covered at all.”
Then, in response to how much of the legs need to be covered- “Although the lower sections of the legs must be very well covered.. there is no obligation to screen off the legs so that they cannot be seen – in contrast with the upper section which must be hidden and disguised behind a dress or skirt. The upper sections of the legs contains the thigh, and the thigh and all that belongs to it must be completely screened off. This obligation does not apply to the lower sections of the legs which are not part of the thigh area.”
Brotherofurs, does this answer your question?May 1, 2011 3:14 am at 3:14 am #763726
yeah i think. they’re not allowed? only black tights? 😉May 1, 2011 3:22 am at 3:22 am #763727
it needs to be a certain thickness- 35 denier is allowed according to most poskimMay 1, 2011 3:26 am at 3:26 am #763728
Well, on page 337 it goes on to say “In some communities only light coloured tights are allowed. This refers to medium brown, beige, light or dark grey and mild shades of off white. They do not allow dark shades such as black, because they are viewed as modern, etc…”
“In other communities, black tights and in some places even dark navy blue tights are worn, provided they cover the leg…”
Guess it depends on your community and what they deem acceptable.
But it looks like that instead of ‘see thru,’ you’re supposed to wear a ‘light’ colour.
Anyone to back me up on this? This is what I understand from the sefer…May 1, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #763729
s2021- but isn’t there also a problem with measuring by ‘denier’ these days, bc they’re making the stockings ‘stonger’ but not thick enough? (or something like that- I heard somewhere that it’s an issue…)May 1, 2011 3:42 am at 3:42 am #763730
If the community allows see through tights/stockings for women, why do the girls have to wear knee socks?May 1, 2011 3:47 am at 3:47 am #763731
Bas- I dunno but Im not that frum to start wearing bulletproofs.
Im just proud of myself that I wear 30s while most of my peers wear 10/15 denier..May 1, 2011 3:52 am at 3:52 am #763732
:-D. Lol, good on’ya s2021May 1, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #763733
Little Sally SaucerMember
um….i cant quote the source, but i heard that since one of the reasons for tznius is to protect the men, it goes by the men in your community.
if ur wearing stockings in a community that the men assume your wearing stockings EVEN IF ITS VERY SHEER…than your allowed to wear any denier cuz the men won’t think that your not wearing stockings if it doesnt look like it…
but, if lets say you’re in a community where only stockings with seams are worn, than u may only wear seams, cuz the men will assume that if you dont have seams then your not wearing anything…;)May 1, 2011 3:54 am at 3:54 am #763734
I don’t think men should ever wear stockings.May 1, 2011 3:57 am at 3:57 am #763735
…even though I just discovered the most comfortable pair of my life but there only 20 denier.. :((( havin a hard time..May 1, 2011 4:04 am at 4:04 am #763736
apushita- I think men should have in mind to thank Hashem 4 that by “shelo asani ishah”May 1, 2011 4:15 am at 4:15 am #763737
I don’t have the sources off hand and I will try to look it up tomorrow, but basically Rav Moshe and the Mishnah Berurah are of the opinion that shok beisha ervah does not apply to under the knee. Thus, meikar hadin, according to them, one does not have to wear stockings. There are many poskim who disagree, Rav Ahron Kotler among them ( and apparently Rabbi Falk.) That being said, obviously if the minhag hamokom is not to allow it, then it is assur. Rav Moshe adds that even those that are makpid are allowed to wear stockings that are the same color as the skin. I don’t remember exactly off hand if he spoke of see through stockings, plus I’m not really familiar with all the differences between sheer, nude, skin color, etc. Maybe the females on the site could help us out.May 1, 2011 8:18 am at 8:18 am #763738
truth be toldMember
newhere: Rav Falk goes according Rav MosheMay 1, 2011 2:01 pm at 2:01 pm #763739
truth be told- I have never read Rabbi Falk’s sefer, but from the previous posts it seems that he holds one must wear stockings, clearly against Rav Moshe. Please explain what I’m missing. The teshuva is in even haezer 4 siman 100 seif 6. Here’s a loose translation: “This that there are men who are makpid that their wives and daughters wear stockings on their legs but are not makpid that the stockings are in a way which makes it impossible to see, that you ask, what difference does it make (meaning what’s the point), because if below the knee is an ervah they don’t help because seeing ervah through glass is assur, and if like the mishnah berurah that they are not an ervah then there’s no need for stockings? The truth is that it’s an extra level of tznius because lihalacha below the knee is not an ervah. But there is a reason for those that are tzinus in this because the materials even in these thin stockings do not allow one to see the leg. The proof to this is that when they are dyed black or white, the leg is not seen, only when they are dyed like the color of the skin. Therefore, in reality, the leg is covered, it just appears that it is not.”May 2, 2011 1:50 am at 1:50 am #763740
i’m a little confused especially with newhere (sorry!;)
okay so the men in my community don’t think everyone is wearing therefore if someone wore nude tights they would not know that their leg is covered.
Newhere- are u saying it’s okay if its the color of the skin because it’s covered in reaity it just appears not?
Ezrat Hashem- i thought girls wore knee socks becuase they’re more comfortable for the young girls then wearing stockings
and now you can’t go according to denier?
i’m confusedMay 2, 2011 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #763741
As far as I remember (don’t have the book in front of me) Rabbi Falk says that below the knee is not ervah and does not need to be covered ‘me’ikar hadin’. It *does* need to be covered if the minhag hamokom is to cover it. If that is the case, then one *must* wear stockings.May 2, 2011 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #763742
choco- I admit Rav Moshe’s teshuva is a bit confusing, especially when you’re only reading a translation. Rav Moshe holds meikar hadin you don’t have to cover under the knee. He then adds that those that are makpid can wear stockings “that are the same color as the skin”. I am not familiar with exactly how nude stockings work, are they actually see thru or are they the same color of the skin? If they are actually see through, then it seems that Rav Moshe would hold that does not count as covering your legs.May 2, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #763743
Linear Mass Density?
Now I am confused.
I’ll also add my usual R. Falk disclaimer that that book is not accepted as Halacha by most of the male “Yeshivish” Olam (as opposed to the sems) or Charaidim in EY, and certainly not by the chassidim (all of which have their own mesorah). Ask your own LOR for actual practice.May 2, 2011 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #763744
While the Chasidim and Chareidim in EY have stricter tznius criteria, the Yeshivish oilem in C”L generally go with the same shittos as Rav Falk shlit”a brings in his Sefer. That’s the reason the Yeshivish girls high schools and seminaries use Rav Falk’s Sefer to teach the girls.May 2, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #763745
I just had this discussion with someone the other day. I am so confused….I heard that someone said in Rabbi Forscheimers name that you can wear 30 denier. when I asked him (I have someone who works with him ask him and I heard it from his mouth!) if that means that anything that is 30 is ok he said no! There was a meeting of rabbonim and they asked him for a denier that they can say is ok. He did not want to give one because every person is so different….until the pressed him so much that he said “anything under 30 is not allowed ever but over 30 has to be checked out on your foot. you have to be able to tell the the person is wearing tights from across the street.” those were his wordsMay 2, 2011 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #763746
While the Chasidim and Chareidim in EY have stricter tznius criteria, the Yeshivish oilem in C”L generally go with the same shittos as Rav Falk shlit”a brings in his Sefer. That’s the reason the Yeshivish girls high schools and seminaries use Rav Falk’s Sefer to teach the girls.
I don’t think so. Ask a Rov, not what Sems do.
But that was a side point. “In Town” might be more machmir due to the pull of Times Square, what do I know.
And Chassidim (I don’t know about Charaidim) are strict in some things, but less strict in others. It is (like most things) a mixed bag (and the less strict stuff will not and can not be printed in mixed company).May 2, 2011 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #763747
Dont try to jump from 0-60 in one day.. U dont want to get overwhelmed and say its impossible. Start slowly and do the best u can.May 2, 2011 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #763748
I was in sem in gateshead and heard directly from rav falk that skin colour tights are ok as long as they have a detectable sheen to them, i.e. it is clear and obvious that you are wearing tights.
Feel free to call himMay 2, 2011 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #763749
I don’t think so. Ask a Rov, not what Sems do.
I did, and that’s what I was told. The Seminaries are following Daas Torah.
“In Town” might be more machmir due to the pull of Times Square, what do I know.
So now you’re adding “in-town” to what previously you said was only Chareidim in EY and Chasidim? Actually OOT yeshivisha Yeshiva’s are the same. What you may be referring to is the laxity amongst OOT outside of the Yeshivas.
And Chassidim (I don’t know about Charaidim) are strict in some things, but less strict in others.
If the issue is tznius, they (Chasidim and Chareidim) are strict in this area.May 2, 2011 8:02 pm at 8:02 pm #763750
Im my community some of the men (chasidi) wear viesser zekken far shabbis, und schvartze zeckken far der voch. Seems like quality stockings to me!
In the shelo asani isha dept, I was once delegated by my wife (suffering critical sciatica) to help her get her stockings on. I never felt like such a lo yitzloch, and was never berated as such ever before, and b”h not since.May 3, 2011 12:44 am at 12:44 am #763751
“I’ll also add my usual R. Falk disclaimer that that book is not accepted as Halacha by most of the male “Yeshivish” Olam (as opposed to the sems) or Charaidim in EY, and certainly not by the chassidim (all of which have their own mesorah). Ask your own LOR for actual practice. “
Everythng Rav Falk says is 100% HALACHAH! He gives youthe sources for everything he says.May 3, 2011 1:25 am at 1:25 am #763752
“Everythng Rav Falk says is 100% HALACHAH! He gives youthe sources for everything he says.” Really? How is it possible for any sefer to be 100 percent lihalach? Let’s take some examples: Rav Moshe zt’l held stockings were not a requirement, Rav Ahron zt’l held they were. Whatever Rabbi Falk comes out on the issue (there seems to be some confusion as to what exactly that is) he is either paskening against Rav Moshe or against Rav Ahron. So say I am a talmid of the one he is paskening against, is Rabbi Falk’s psak the halcha for me?! Or let’s say the issue of whether you’re allowed to wear a sheitel. I am assuming Rabbi Falk allows it, but what if I follow Rav Ovadyah Yosef who does not allow it, is that the halacha for me? You seem to be very passionate with the caps and exclamation point, maybe you should calm down a little and think if what you’re saying makes sense.May 3, 2011 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #763753
Don’t feed the troll.May 4, 2011 1:29 am at 1:29 am #763754
i wouldn’t know who to go by 🙁
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