When is it time to divorce?
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December 6, 2012 2:55 am at 2:55 am #912001
rebdoniel-Divorce will damage your children. The kinderlach are never the same afterwards.”
Never the same!!!! So its imposible to move on from a divorce?
Its unfortunate that there are posters here that have no idea what divorce means. They think that its some cataclysmic event that destroys someones life. I hate to break it to you, divorce is not that all uncommon. In fact, there is a whole tractate about it. It happens. And when it does, just like any other tragic event that can(and will) happen, people get over it. They move on.December 6, 2012 3:10 am at 3:10 am #912002gefenParticipant
OneOfMany – thanks 🙂December 6, 2012 3:12 am at 3:12 am #912003farrocksMember
I hate to break it to you, divorce is not that all uncommon.
Murder isn’t all that uncommon either. When Dinkins was Mayor, there were over 2,000 per year in NYC alone!December 6, 2012 3:50 am at 3:50 am #912004OneOfManyParticipant
🙂December 6, 2012 3:54 am at 3:54 am #912005
Im not saying that divorce is a good thing, just that its a reality.December 6, 2012 3:55 am at 3:55 am #912006The little I knowParticipant
I find it interesting to read the comments of lay people, however intelligent, about issues that are intricate and complex, but totally out of their domain of expertise. I am not against consulting a Rav, but I am skeptical that there are many whose advice is useful in such situations. Rabbonim are rarely trained or experienced in providing guidance on matters of shalom bayis. The role for a Rav is to provide support, referral to professionals and needed community resources, and a helping hand (that is carefully restricted from intervening or taking sides with anyone).
The generalizations in earlier comments are as entertaining and amusing as they are dangerous. Are all children of divorce “damaged”? I hope not. Their lot in life has additional challenges due to divorce. But an intact family with poor shalom bayis is also damaging. Is divorce the answer? Sometimes yes, and sometimes not. Only professionals can help decide (with syatta dishmaya, of course).
Someone noted that the therapist and Rav do not make the decision. That is correct. But the professional guidance to make a decision properly, without falling prey to the overwhelming emotions of the crisis is critical.
The divorce process is also complex. There are many aspects that are not common knowledge, and require professional guidance. There are many frum professionals who know the courts, the lawyers, the to’anim, and batei din. They are useful in helping someone going through this process in utilizing the needed resources. It’s easy to be misguided, even by people who mean well and are otherwise nice, respectful people.
Someone said, “People marry out of love, and divorce out of hate.” There are heaps of negative emotion when marriages split, and it is a challenge to deal with all this. Get help and guidance. Don’t assume a Rav, with all his smichos and areas of halachic expertise is learned and experienced in this parsha.December 6, 2012 4:54 am at 4:54 am #912007WIYMember
If he is asking for another chance you need to make it clear that it be on your terms. You should also tell the Rav or whomever he listens to if he listens to anyone that is that this will only work and he can only recover if you do this together. Meaning he has to trust you and allow you to help him. If he won’t cooperate and allow you to filter his computer, as well as set up a system where you or the Rav or someone else you can trust can monitor what he views and monitor how much time he spends on it and if he won’t work on himself then there’s no reason for you to stick around. I hate to say this but you need to find a way to get on his “devices ” and see why he spends so much time online. Is he hooked to gaming or is it something much worse? You need to find out. At the end of the day, if he won’t cooperate then you have no marriage and you will just get more and more miserable and he will get more and more addicted (and eventually ruin himself totally jeopardize his career and Yiddishkiet).
I’m just wondering, was he always so problematic or is this recent like the last few years? How long has this been going on?December 6, 2012 5:18 am at 5:18 am #912008
@farrocks, aka Joseph
I’m pretty sure that based upon what OP stated, the constant internet usage, the refusal of a filter, R’ Chaim Kanievsky would state to get divorced.
Based upon what you are saying, it sounds like he’ll only consider changing once he realizes you are serious about leaving, and even then who knows
Good Luck, I know this isn’t easyDecember 6, 2012 5:53 am at 5:53 am #912009
BC -“addiction/OCD, anger/rage”
While anger and rage go together, addiction and OCD don’t. They are two separate Mental Illnesses. It’s possible that he has both. How are you considering divorce when you don’t even understand his illness? Did you go to his therapist and ask him/her to explain it?December 6, 2012 6:40 am at 6:40 am #912010
MorahRach -“Health -When you say the Rav and therapist are absolutely the ONLY ones who can decide if there should be a divorce or not, do you also mean ” and the two parties involved”?”
No, I don’t. They are obviously the ones considering it, or at least one is, but they/he/she Should Not make it final without the approval of both their therapist and their Rov.
“Please Gd I should never be in this situation and no one else here should, but I see this attitude or opinion a lot here that every decision in life should be made by you Rav.”
Life and marriage – which is part of most peoples’ lives – is Scary!
No Rov should ever just go tell s/o to get divorced. If he sees a major problem with one or the other he should inform the other and possibly the one with the problem – to seek help by a mental health professional.
“Hashem bH gave you a brain and a heart, shouldn’t we be able to know what is right for us, at least part of the time if not all?”
Hashem also gave us a Yetzer Hora and we don’t know what really is good for us a lot of the time.
“Of course consulting a rabbi close to you is important I am definitely not saying otherwise, I just feel like ultimately the decision should be up to you.”
The Rabbi can be making a mistake -that’s why I said both your therapist And your Rov. If you feel that the Rabbi is making a mistake and your therapist agrees that he is -then you have to find a different Rov. (Or perhaps you and the therapist are wrong and it’s time for a new therapist. This is why it’s so important to use a therapist that is a Ben/Bas Torah.) Usually both the therapist and the Rov are on the same page! E/o is human and e/o makes mistakes. If a Rov can make mistakes -how much more so will the party involved with this divorce not be able to think clearly?
“If someone is miserable in a marriage, does not have love for their spouse anymore, cries themselves to sleep, no longer has attraction to the other, or feels unloved and gets berated.. Any number of things that boil down to a miserable marriage, and your rabbi says stay together, what is wrong with making the decision for yourself?”
If both your Rabbi and your therapist say to – stay together -then obviously they are looking at the total picture. It might be true all these feelings, but if they both are on the same page – you are looking at it wrong. If anybody has these feelings and they are told Not to get divorced, then the next step is to try and change the marriage to be happy. Sometimes there is no basis for these feelings, and even when there is and you’re told to stay together anyway find out how to improve the marriage – that these feelings go away. I’ll tell you this much -it will take a lot of hard work on both spouses to make e/o happy!December 6, 2012 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #912011Think firstMember
Steven Friedman (212) 729-7540 or (845) 371-9015 most amazing frum therapist who specializes in addiction.
Call him. You didn’t create the problem, you can’t control it and you can’t fix it. Your husband can get fixed with Stevens help. Many have.December 6, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #912012kollel_wifeParticipant
I feel for you very much and will give you my opinion whatever it’s worth.
If you live with someone who is controlling and an addict, unless he really wants to change (not YOU want him to change), it won’t happen. And unless he wants to change VERY BADLY it may not happen either. Unless a person is VERY, VERY motivated to correct themselves, work with a therapist very hard, they won’t succeed. In this case it doesn’t sound like he’s motivated either. Also, if part of his behavior includes blaming you for his mistakes, etc, it doesn’t sound like he is willing to see himself objectively.
That being said, I have a good friend who is divorced. Her children and very self conscious and did not tell many classmates about the situation. It is very hard on children. But if the situation you describe doesn’t get better, it will HARDER on them.December 6, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #912013
Health- thank you for Taking the time to go over all of the points I raised! I appreciate that and your opinion.December 6, 2012 8:29 pm at 8:29 pm #912014
MR – You’re welcome. And I enjoy helping people/doing Chessed, in spite of my reputation here in the CR.December 7, 2012 3:23 am at 3:23 am #912015147Participant
FYI. This is not a Catholic based web site.
Please PLONIALMONI4 don’t mention catholics on this forum which really sullies this forum. If you must mention another religion, then mention Hindus. They have far less Jewish blood on their hands than do the catholics.December 9, 2012 1:24 am at 1:24 am #912016
DO NOT mention any other religions at all.December 9, 2012 1:46 am at 1:46 am #912017
PLONIALMONI4 was making an excellent point. Unlike the catholic religion, Judaism allows for divorce if it the appropriate measure.December 9, 2012 1:55 am at 1:55 am #912018peacefullMember
There is a Simon in Shulchon Urech that discusses when one shoul devorce, but in general, breaking relationships are like braking lives, it’s not the direction to consider, unless it’s already in the category mentioned in Halacha.December 9, 2012 6:22 am at 6:22 am #912019
The religions of the world are so completely unlike our Orthodox Judaism that it is a sacrilege to mention them in the same breath as Orthodox Judaism. It is also a sacrilege mention them for any reason at all.December 9, 2012 10:24 am at 10:24 am #912020tzarich_zivugMember
It’s funny reading these last comments on YWN it seems that people are just trying very hard to see how to take things out of hand….
What’s so bad about mentioning a minus in another religion? and mentioning the name of the religion ?
If it was that bad nothing in the torah would have ever been discussed about plishtim, sdom and all the rest cant think off hand of any others
Matan1 and Plomialmoni4 – its heart warming to see that some people with seichel are around in this generation, Thank you 😉December 9, 2012 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #912021zahavasdadParticipant
Since when did it become assur to say the word “Catholic”December 9, 2012 2:54 pm at 2:54 pm #912022
I dont get your point. Its not an “unlike comparison”, it was a contrast. We are NOT like the catholic church. Whats wrong in saying that?December 9, 2012 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #912023
Divorce is, was and should be discouraged. It used to be extraordinarily rare, for thousands of years, as it should be. We should strive to return to that ideal.December 9, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #912024
It is statements like that which aren’t helpful. Correct, in an ideal world you are correct, but this world is far from ideal. We live in the era before moshiach where Chutzpa is rampant. An era where many only care about themselves.if only one party is interested in making the marriage work, and the other party couldn’t care less whether or not the spouse stays, do we tell the party that care to stay in an unhappy marriage with an apathetic partner? To we show the children that divorce is such a taboo that we suffer to avoid it?
Correct, we try to fix problems’ not run away from them, but what about those problems which can no longer be fixed?
No, I am not pro divorce, but things aren’t as black and white as you make it seem.December 9, 2012 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #912025
Check out this old topic
Should the OP get divorced or should she stay since divorce is something which should be avoided?
theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/very-disturbing-please-only-kind-people-readDecember 9, 2012 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #912026
So its better for kids to grow up in a house with zero shalom bais and constant fighting than for the parents to get divorced?December 9, 2012 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #912027147Participant
So its better for kids to grow up in a house with zero shalom bais and constant fighting than for the parents to get divorced?
If custody is automatically given to the mother, then a resounding yes. If father get custody as often as mothers, and all boys over 6 live with their father as per Halocho, then the answer to your question matan1, maybe reluctantly, no.December 9, 2012 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #912028
which halacha states the boys over 6 go with the father?
So if the father gets them then it is ok, but it is better for them to be in a home with destructive shalom bayis than be alone with mom?December 9, 2012 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #912029
There is no halacha that states that the kids must go with the father.December 9, 2012 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #912030
I have been debating whether or no to post this point but I feel I must.
Yes, divorce should not be encouraged, and it should be a “last resort” but it is not as black and white as many are making it seem. Whenever I see someone saying, divorce is so much worse for the children, and what about the children, what will it do to the children etc.. A house with little to no shalom bayis is no better. A house with fighting, bickering, slamming doors, sleeping on the couch, things of that nature are no better.
I hAve a close relationship with my parents, I love them and they are good parents bH, wonderful people as well, but I used to wish that they would get divorced daily. They didn’t and now their marriage is pretty good, granted I don’t live at home anymore but my sister does so I know. They stuck it out and someone dealt with issue and 18 years later they are Doing well. Let me ask you this. Was it worth it? I am sure you will all say yes but I’m not so sure. Obviously I am happy now that they are together, and I don’t have to split my time between the two, and siblings disnt have to deal with living at one parents one week another parents the other, but growing up sometimes was pretty rough. My parents would go days Even weeks without speaking. My father would leave for the night after particularly bad fights. The cursing and throwing of objects and slamming of doors and the ” I wish I never married you”, and the worst to me or my siblings” I wish I never had YOU , you are the reason we fight all the time”. That was my favorite. I used to deal with each parents separately complaining to me about the other, locking one parent out of the house. The list can go on for ages. Now they seem pretty happy and I can only pray that my marriage stays great and is nothing like what theirs was. Can anyone honesty tell me I was better off that they stayed together?December 9, 2012 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #912031
MR – Coming from a similar home all I can say perhaps you’re right. But one thing about that generation is that they didn’t get divorced no matter what. It was very stigmatized. Sometimes they should have.
While I’ve found in our generation just the opposite, people get divorced for almost No reason. I blame my wife’s friends for mine. These women are Not Frum, no matter how they look on the outside.December 9, 2012 9:37 pm at 9:37 pm #912032
Morah, certainly was better that your parents remained married. And the fact their marriage is good now is the proof! Had they divorced, using the children as pawn’s against each other would have been far far worse.
Also, 147 is correct about halacha granting custody of a non-infant son to the father.December 9, 2012 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #912033MurphysLawMember
To the best of my knowledge, no survey has been carried out to prove the time for divorce,I guess it depends at what time of day you go to Beis Din.
I would think early afternoon would be best, as to early/late the Dayonim might be sleepy/tired.December 9, 2012 11:49 pm at 11:49 pm #912034
Iced, how do you find that it is proof? Yes I am happy that they stayed together because now that I am married there are less complications for me/my family- basically selfish reasons. The damage was done though. Although I am very happy, I don’t have SO much faith in happy marriages. It sounds really horrible, but I never have and I hope that changes. Until I got married I whole heatedly ( and sometimes still do) believe that most married people aren’t really all that happy. My parents legitimately hated each other 75% of the time. The time that my mother was not chewing off my fathers head and thigs were calm , I SO walked on egg shells because I I did not want to be the thing to set anyone off and cause them to fight. I’m just trying to give some perspective from someone who lived through this. My parents wanted to get divorced but I was not privy to the real conversations and for some reason they never did. I want to have a discussion with my mother about it, but I probably should not drudge up the past.December 10, 2012 12:06 am at 12:06 am #912035
Divorced parents using their children as pawns to fight their ex-spouse is so very much worse.
And the fact that they made up and are now still happily married is indeed proof against divorce.December 10, 2012 12:29 am at 12:29 am #912036December 10, 2012 12:40 am at 12:40 am #912037
Re : divorce- very sad if it happens. Sometimes a full complete shalom bayis is not possible – but different families have different limits. May we all, klal yisroel have complete shalom bayis .December 10, 2012 12:49 am at 12:49 am #912038mewhoParticipant
i agree with matan1….living in a battle zone is not better than divorceDecember 10, 2012 1:01 am at 1:01 am #912039OneOfManyParticipant
Joseph: Enough is enough already. What you are saying to MorahRach is completely uncalled for. Is justifying your neat little world view so important to you that you are willing to besmirch the pain of a suffering Jew?December 10, 2012 1:17 am at 1:17 am #912040
I dong understand your point. There is nothing wrong to make a contrast between us and other religions. The gemara, and reshonim do it all the time. The ramban famously debated pablo christiani. It’s well documented.December 10, 2012 2:17 am at 2:17 am #912041
MorahRach -“Although I am very happy, I don’t have SO much faith in happy marriages. It sounds really horrible, but I never have and I hope that changes. Until I got married I whole heatedly ( and sometimes still do) believe that most married people aren’t really all that happy. My parents legitimately hated each other 75% of the time.”
All your negativity sounds like a book I had to read in College called “Against Love”. Even though my parents didn’t have a good marriage and mine ended – I know that there are plenty of happy marriages. Some marriages have to be worked on, but not all.
And happiness doesn’t mean what you read in the fairy tales as a little kid. Perhaps try reading “Gateway to Happiness” by Z. Pliskin to find out what happiness is. Noone is perfect and the quicker the husband or the wife learn this – the less rocky the road of life will be.December 10, 2012 2:36 am at 2:36 am #912042
Of course it’s not all fairy tales I understand that. And I hope that my marriage is happy and healthy until 120, I’m just saying that some aren’t and it’s OK to admit that. It’s awful and heart breaking and most definitely used as a way out when often times it can be fixed, but sometimes it’s necessary.December 10, 2012 2:37 am at 2:37 am #912043
Matan1: We never debated the Christians out of our own volition. It was forced upon us.December 10, 2012 2:43 am at 2:43 am #912044🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
MR – sorry about your pain. Glad you are doing well.December 10, 2012 2:48 am at 2:48 am #912045
Matan 1 you said-” The ramban famously debated pablo cxxxxtiani.”
YES, Ramban was FORCED to and he talked about Hashem and His creation, not about a specific “other religion”.
The gemara and reshonim do not mention the founder of their religion by name, for example.December 10, 2012 2:52 am at 2:52 am #912046
This will be my last post in this thread(with Gods help).This world is not black and white. It is full of grey. Not situation is the same for everyone. Blanket assertions like the ones you were making have no purpose, unless your purpose was to hurt others.
You were probably very lucky in the fact that you grew up in a house full of shalom bais. But unfortunately, not all homes are like that. Sometimes couples fight, and thats normal. But sometimes the fighting becomes extreme, affecting both the husband, wife and especially the kids. It is at this point that a couple must make a cheshbon. They must weigh the benefits of staying together and negatives of splitting up. And sometimes the divorce is the more logical and reasonable answer to constant fighting in the home
Anecdotally, my parents divorce was the best thing that ever happened to me. My house went from a war zone to a peaceful, pleasant place to live. Sure it was hard, but everyday of my life I thank my mother and father for going for the divorce.
My message to you is to not generalize situations where you have no idea of the specifics. Every situation has its ins and outs that you have no idea about. So how about offering support instead of criticizing other peoples moves.December 10, 2012 3:25 am at 3:25 am #912048
Also I fully know halacha supports divorce and so do I . My wish for shalom bayis, above was perfectly in order.December 10, 2012 3:47 am at 3:47 am #912049
I was referring to your views on divorce, not on using christian comparisons to Judaism. That was what was hurtful.
In regards to your personal situation, a fully apologize if i misrepresented the shalom bais of your home. I had no intent to disrespect of insult you. Please accept my apology.
My primary point was that we should not judge all cases by the same grading rubric. All marriages have their own details that as outsiders we are not privy to. So dot make generalizations about how divorce is never an option.December 10, 2012 4:13 am at 4:13 am #912050
I apologize for my gramatical errors in some of my postsDecember 10, 2012 4:31 am at 4:31 am #912051
I simply have not said that. Go back and find the one who did. Mistaken identity.
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