April 27, 2014 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #612648
..you know, the day it starts gets “exciting” over here, year after year.
Uh Oh!! Did I just start it?!?April 27, 2014 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1014049
What does that mean?April 27, 2014 11:14 pm at 11:14 pm #1014050
Oh!! You’re apparently new here. Watch the fireworks about to erupt here (in a week).
I wait for it all year round, watch how the whole crowd here joins in the brawl… and then when everyone’s down, beaten, I timidly emerge and feast on…April 27, 2014 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #1014051popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think he’s talking about lag b’omer, and the yearly hock over whether you can listen to music already at night.
Gets crazier every year. I think I’ll sit it out this time.April 27, 2014 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #1014052
In Eretz Yisrael it’s next Tuesday. In America, everyone holds it’s next Tuesday except for R’ Schachter who holds it’s next Monday.April 28, 2014 12:23 am at 12:23 am #1014053
everyone holds it’s next Tuesday except for R’ Schachter who holds it’s next Monday
And the Chazon Ish who holds that it isn’t.April 28, 2014 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1014054
DY: Nah. Even Satmar holds that it’s next Tuesday.April 28, 2014 3:00 am at 3:00 am #1014055Patur Aval AssurParticipant
I think this is like the fourth time in five years that it’s nidcheh. They should have just made it vav iyar to begin with.April 28, 2014 3:05 am at 3:05 am #1014056I. M. ShluffinParticipant
For goodness’ sakes, why is everyone so desperate for what passes for music nowadays? Would you like me to sing for you?April 28, 2014 3:46 am at 3:46 am #1014057
what’s next Tuesday?April 28, 2014 4:02 am at 4:02 am #1014058
Have no idea what they’re talking about here. What’s on next Tuesday (according to some), or better yet, what’s NOT on next Tuesday according to…April 28, 2014 5:15 am at 5:15 am #1014059oyyoyyoyParticipant
ya ya ya, we get it. we’re new here and arent on the same level of you holy long time members, the coffee room isnt what it used to be yadda yadda yaddaApril 28, 2014 6:31 am at 6:31 am #1014060
vey vey, I don’t get it. Maybe you’re new here, what make long time members holy? Any what was the coffee room like before? And hooze yadda to the third?April 28, 2014 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1014061To be or not to beMember
<i>I. M. Shluffin</i>
with you’re voice? 🙂April 28, 2014 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #1014062oyyoyyoyParticipant
froggie, twasnt aimed at you in specific. twas a general statement to the klal.April 28, 2014 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1014063
Little Froggie is a vulture?April 28, 2014 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1014064
No, I’m not a vulture (some in the past were actually convinced I am)April 28, 2014 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1014066HaLeiViParticipant
Why don’t they push off Monday instead?April 28, 2014 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1014067
HaLeiVi: What do you mean?April 28, 2014 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1014068
no sam, what do you mean?April 28, 2014 11:27 pm at 11:27 pm #1014069
I wanted to know what he meant by pushing off Monday.April 29, 2014 1:12 am at 1:12 am #1014070
To push off Monday–to postpone Monday.April 29, 2014 6:40 am at 6:40 am #1014071
Sam In Eretz Yisrael it’s next Tuesday. In America, everyone holds it’s next Tuesday except for R’ Schachter who holds it’s next Monday.
what are u talking about??April 29, 2014 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #1014072Patur Aval AssurParticipant
Perhaps he meant that instead of pushing off the significance of Sunday to Monday and the significance of Monday to Tuesday, we should just push off the significance of Sunday to Tuesday and leave Monday as it is.April 30, 2014 12:19 am at 12:19 am #1014073
I think he meant something really deep. I’m about to delve into the mystical thoughts and meanings…
to push off Monday… that means he wants to do away with Mondays..
or maybe he’s a Yekke, something about morgen.. foul lauter..April 30, 2014 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1014074HaLeiViParticipant
I don’t know why it is pushed off to Tuesday, so I am imagining it is because of Bahav. If so, the Taanis should be Nidche from the Chag instead of the other way around.April 30, 2014 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #1014075
HaLeiVi: Nowadays it is almost always pushed off. It has nothing to do with Bahab. The reason is that the government is concerned about the fact that since Yom HaZikaron and Yom Haatzmaut are consecutive days, with the former having many Tekesim and speeches and such and the latter having celebrations, that having either day next to Shabbos could lead to tremendous Chillul Shabbos (either with setting up the night before or with partying into the following night). Therefore, they are always Doche Yom HaAtzmaut to a Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday. With the way the calendar is set up, 5 Iyar cannot be a Tuesday or Thursday anyway, so it is Nidche more often than not.May 1, 2014 1:35 am at 1:35 am #1014076147Participant
so it is Nidche more often than not. actually, Yom ha’Atzmaut is a Mukdom more often that it is a Nidche, because if it falls out on a Friday [as it will, 4 out of the next 5 years] it is brought forward to Thursday Iyyor 4th, & if it falls out on a Shabbos, it is brought forward to Thursday Iyyor 3rd.
Ironically, the Declaration of Independence was quickly moved up to a Friday afternoon of Iyyor 5th, to abrogate Chilul Shabbos, and not withstanding, when nowadays that date is a Friday as was in 1948, is brought forward to Iyyor 4th.
The reason is that the government is concerned This is a very naive To’us. The government is not 1 iota concerned about Chillul Shabbos. However:- the Rabbanut haRashi cares a lot about Kedushas haShabbos, and they are the ones who pushed for the change in timing of Yom haAtma’ut in a bid to abrogate Chillul Shabbos.May 1, 2014 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1014077I. M. ShluffinParticipant
Wow – I really misunderstand this thread. I thought we were talking about LAg B’Omer, which is why I thought people wanted music, and I volunteered to sing (yes, with my voice, 2b. How else? Would you like to read my sound waves?) for the music-deprived souls in the CR. Only Hashem knows what made me think that we were talking about Lag B”omer being on the 14th day of the Omer…May 1, 2014 3:48 am at 3:48 am #1014078
Like we’re talking about Yomim Tovim… ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????…May 1, 2014 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #1014079
That was grossly inappropriate by LF.May 1, 2014 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1014080
That, Sam2, is exactly the point. Highly, grossly inappropriate to use the same terminology we use for Hashem’s (and His Chachamim) mikro’ai Kodesh, His days of inherent Kedusha (????? ????) and meaningful introspection, as for this man-made modern day national celebration. Right – grossly inappropriate.May 1, 2014 6:50 pm at 6:50 pm #1014081ANONANOParticipant
“Like we’re talking about Yomim Tovim… ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ????…” Aha it began……..looking forward to an exciting weekend in the CR!May 1, 2014 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1014082besalelParticipant
i am kind of curious if yeshiva ponovitch will display the flag this year or not and if not if this is the first time it will not.May 2, 2014 1:41 am at 1:41 am #1014083147Participant
Little Froggie & ANONANO:- FYI the correct Hebrew terminology would be “Yom haAtzma’t SheChal [LiHeyos} beShabbos” & not “sheNofal”May 2, 2014 3:24 am at 3:24 am #1014084
I chose my terminology AND SPELLING purposefully.May 2, 2014 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #1014085
LF: You’re right. We shouldn’t use words that have meaning when discussing an issue. After all, the word “Nidche” appears in the Torah to refer to a day that falls out… Oh wait. It’s a word that means something. Are we not allowed to use words anymore that appear in Torah sources for non-Torah purposes? You’re being silly and offensive.
Oh, and for your information, the words “Nidche” and “Mukdam” referring to days in Halachic literature never refer to Yomim Tovim. They refer to days instituted by Chazal for (mostly) fasting. Some people do hold they are following Chazal’s same guidelines in giving Shevach V’hoda’ah to HKBH on Yom Ha’atzma’ut.
Even the vast majority of ardent Chareidim in Eretz Yisrael have enough sensitivity to not call it Yom Ha’atzamos. It is a gross insult to the Kedoshim who died Al Kiddush Hashem giving their lives so that we could all have somewhere safe to be free as Jews. I’m quite disappointed that the mods let that through. If you don’t want to call is Yom Ha’atzma’ut, that’s fine. I have heard some anti-Zionists in America who just call it Israeli Independence Day because they refuse to make it sound like a Jewish holiday. That’s fine (even if I disagree with that opinion). What you said was well out of line.May 2, 2014 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1014086
Sorry, But I’m not about to compare days assigned by our holy Chazal, who had a koach to imbue those days with meaning (as I wrote), to these nationalistic days assigned by some bare-headed individuals. Yes, it a sure fine thing to give thanks to HaShem for all his chasodim he does for us, each and every, it’s was not at all the intention of those “founding fathers”. – ??? ??? ????.
Sorry, but there’s a world of a difference. To try to compare, using such terminology as with REAL Yomim Tovim is an insult to authentic Torah and it’s keepers.
Go ahead, party all you want, but don’t call it, or compare it to a Yom Tov.May 2, 2014 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1014087
Froggie, you’re the only one who compared it to a Yom Tov. The fact is that it’s an Israeli holiday, and Hebrew terms are used for it. What would you like the Israelis to say? Should they use English?May 2, 2014 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1014088
LF: So you’re protesting the fact that someone used the word “nidche” or “Mukdam”? That’s still silly, no? They’re words. They’re not even Halachic terms. They are words which describe a state of something. The same state of which applies to Yom Ha’atzma’ut. There are plenty of reasons to not like the day. This is a silly one.
That aside, being unhappy about the day or the way people are talking about it does not excuse the incredibly inappropriate attack. Let’s not get bogged down in a separate point before this one is resolved.
And you do realize, of course, that just because there happens to be partying by non-Frum people on the same day for the same reason doesn’t make us wrong and celebrating it as well. Or will you stop having a Seder now too?May 2, 2014 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1014089
DaMoshe, define “holiday”.
Sam, the terms mukdam and m’uchar wouldn’t be used for Yomim Tovim since we don’t push them off, except Purim, and we do use the word “makdimim” for krias Megillah.
“Yom Haatzomos” would be offensive to someone who thinks the day has kedushah, but I don’t see how it insults fallen soldiers. It’s not Yom Hazikaron.May 2, 2014 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1014090
DY: I agree, Yom Ha’atzamos is not an inherently offensive term. Context is everything. Those who use the term use it incredibly disparagingly, often to indicate that the founding of the State and the Zionist movement were the cause of the Holocaust. It’s not a nice term, trust me. It’s one that even many Chareidim in Eretz Yisrael get offended when it’s used. If you ask people in Israel (certainly Dati Leumi, but also Chareidim) they will tell you that the phrase means that because they are happy that the State exists, the blood of every Jew who has died since 1890 or so is on their hands. It’s not something you say in polite company. Ever.May 2, 2014 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1014091
DY: Oh no, I’m not getting into that now. There’s been more than enough arguing about Yom Ha’atzmaut, and I don’t want to bring it up again. Let each person do as their Rav says, and respect the rights of other to do the same, without any insults in either direction.May 2, 2014 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1014092
DaMoshe, you misunderstand me. You said nobody called it a Yom Tov, and then called it a holiday (which comes from the words “holy day”).May 2, 2014 5:22 pm at 5:22 pm #1014093
Sam: I was just trying to get us all into the bray for this year. Now I can safely bow out. Wait.. One last shot.
Offensive is the way people out there compare, relate, associate this ?? ??? ???? ???? (hey where did that reference come from), this bare-headed man made national holiday, which had HaShem furthest from mind, to real Yiddishe, Torah Holidays and commemorations. I can call it whatever I want, as DY wrote, it has nothing to do with the fallen heroes, for that there’s a designated Yom Hazikaron, which I won’t attack for concerns of sensitivity.
This day is solely a nationalistic independence day, for the state of Israel, nothing AT ALL Jewish. And since I don’t live there, there is no cause, ground, occasion for celebration or reverence. Had I been living there, that would have a different story. I probably would have joined in some nationalistic activities, as all countries do. After all that was their declaration, loud and clear (I watched a clip) “we will be like all the nations, we will fight with our might..” (I’m not a rabid anti-tzioni, I’m just not for all this fakery, I’m not a rabid zionist)
They chose to out HaShem from their midst. Any added on “frumkite” is just that, added. To make it look as if it has a real Jewish life of its own. BUT IT DOESN’T. And those founding father proclaimed it as such.
And btw I was not aware that others coined this name. I did it entirely at random, no evil intentions, other than to “change” it, as a show that there’s no Jewish reverence to that day.May 2, 2014 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1014094
DY: Let me clarify what I meant. When I said Yom Tov, I meant a chag, like the Shalosh Regalim, Purim, or Chanukah. Days which are either in the Torah or in Shas. Days which Froggie was referring to.
When I said holiday, I meant a holiday as celebrated around the world today. In the USA we have July 4th as a holiday (along with plenty of others.)
Please note that I am NOT saying Yom Ha’atzmaut is on the same level as July 4th. I purposely am not making a statement either way on that topic, as it will just dissolve into name-calling and other insults, against both posters here and major Rabbonim.
Froggie: you were trying to start an argument? How nice. During sefirah, when we should be working on ahavas Yisrael, you want to start an argument. I’m sure Hashem is very happy with you right now.
My mother always told me, “If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all!”May 2, 2014 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1014095
Froggie, one last thing: where in the Israeli Declaration of Independence does it say “we will be like all the nations, we will fight with our might”? Or were you referring to a different declaration?May 2, 2014 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #1014096
LF: Maybe you can call it whatever you want and maybe you thought it up yourself, but that doesn’t remove the offense at all. A very comparable case would be going up to an African-American, calling him the n-word, and then excusing it by saying that you didn’t mean any offense and you were just using a variation of the Latin word for “black”. See how well that goes for you.
To respond to the actual discussion of whether the day is one worthy of celebration, everyone agrees that many of the “founding fathers” of the State had Yiddishkeit nowhere near their minds. In fact, many wanted to be rid of traditional Yiddishkeit. No one disputes that. There were also those involved who did it because they wanted to be able to fulfill all of the Mitzvos as HKBH commanded us and to bring all Jews back to Eretz Yisrael.
All that aside, though, nothing comes from man. Dati Leumi and other Frum people don’t celebrate Yom Ha’atzma’ut because some people (Frum and not) signed a document in 1948. It is celebrated because, in 1949, almost the entire Jewish world because commemorating that day as a day of tremendous Chasdei Hashem where, not only did He give us a safe place where we can practice Yiddishkeit as we were meant to, but He also clearly showed us an absolute early sign of the coming Geulah BB”A.
You are attacking a straw man. You have decided that Yom Ha’atzma’ut is a man-made holiday and therefore should not be compared to holy days. But it is not a man-made holiday. At least, not for the Frum. For the Frum who celebrate it is an acknowledgement that Chazal said there is a Chiyuv Min HaTorah to make a Yom Tov (not Yontif as in Asiyas Melacha, but a Yom Tov as in a good day), replete with the saying of Hallel, whenever HKBH does a Nes for all of Klal Yisrael that serves as a function of heralding a Geulah and Binyan Beis Hamikdash.
Now, I am not saying it’s Muskam that all of the assumptions required to get to the logic in the last paragraph are Muchrach. I would be willing to admit that Ruba D’ruba of the Olam does not hold of all of that, and a large Rov doesn’t even hold of most of it. But don’t come tell me that there is nothing at all Jewish about it. There are many who have a Mesorah, from Moshe Rabbeinu at Har Sinai, that includes it, in the exact same manner that it includes Channukah and Purim. (Well, almost the exact. Chazal had the Koach to mandate with absolute terms that those days were an Aschalta D’Geulah and therefore Leis Man D’palig that they should be celebrated. We nowadays have to work with assumptions and we admit that, therefore, we could be wrong. Butt we’re not making it up on our own. We firmly believe that this falls into the parameters of making a Yom Tov.)
Oh, and a certain R’ Ovadia Yosef, among many others, would disagree with your contention that there is nothing Jewish at all about the day (though he is certainly not happy about those who say Hallel). See Yabiya Omer OC 5:35 and 6:41, if I recall correctly.May 2, 2014 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1014097
Sam2: Regarding your last paragraph, I must offer one correction. R’ Ovadia Yosef zt”l was fine with people saying Hallel – he said it himself! He just held it should be without a bracha (you’re correct about 6:41).
I would correct the statement to say, “he was certainly not happy about those who say Hallel with a bracha.”May 2, 2014 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1014098🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I was just trying to get us all into the bray for this year. Now I can safely bow out.
You really think that that’s mentchlich behavior or are you not obligated toward mentchlichkite when talking to tziyonim? regardless of the topic, starting a thread to make machlokes, and writing the above quoted post is rude.
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