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I think this thread is pointless and stupid.
Are there really thousands and thousands of women in their 50s, 40s and 30s that never got married, whereas there are only very few men those ages who never married?
Dear Always,
The gemara about birth control has nothing to do with marriage. Are you trolling?
n0, this gemora presumes that the girl is married.
Dear Always,
You presume that. The gemara does not.
She could be married. Anyone at any age could be married.
The question was when should a girl be married.
Which in of itself is based on an assumption that marriage is a matter of age.
“Which in of itself is based on an assumption that marriage is a matter of age.”
Chazal, the Gemora, Halacha (Shulchan Aruch), etc, all set age suggestions and age deadlines regarding marriage.
In your comprehension of the issue. Though, I agree with your reading.
a gemora discussing birth control doesn’t presume the girl to be married?
shoun, then how about a gemora discussing a joint revocation of girl’s neder by the father and the hatan? this can happen only before 12, and marriage should happen within a yearIt doesn’t presume that they should, should, should, should be married. It presumes that she could, could, could, could, could be married.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“But, the impression from various halochos related to marriage creates an impression that if by the bas mitzva the girl is still in the father’s house, it is time to say tehilim”
This is an extrapolation that is well beyond the scope of those gemaros, which is surprising coming from someone with a strong STEM background. The fact that the gemara deals with a case does not mean that case is or was culturally normative. Given that halachos define the parameters of what is or is not permitted, they often deal with edge cases.
I take the criticism on extrapolating from girl’s age to what was a norm. Indeed, we have yevamos cases of groups of brothers and corresponding sisters, dying one after another that are hopefully not daily occurances.
Still, you can look at a variety of cases and get a feeling when a case is a stretch case or reasonably a norm – in the latter case, it is discussed in many situations, with practical details.
So, my feeling is that pre-12 y.o. marriage was not that typical, while possible, but 12-13 bogeres
was closer to the norm. See multitude of cases discussing 12-13 y.o. naara/bogeres engagement issues. Another example – when father sells his daughter into servitude (not that typical), she is expected to be married or go free at the bas mitzvah (as this wold be a typical moment).Also, a notion that a man should not live/visit too long at his in-laws before of mother-in-law there. This hints that husband and bride’s mother are typically close to each other in age. Would not be such a big issue if hatan is 15 and MIL is 40 …
This discussion about age raises an interesting question: do we read Gemora as a strictly legal cases or as a guide of living. Strictly legal reading defines edge cases indeed. For example, just had in the daf, a Rav goes to another city to ask a shaila about a posuk, the Teacher is not there, so he goes to another city.
You can learn from this what the pasuk says and some halochos of gezera shava – but you can also learn about an admirable attitude of dropping everything and travelling to get an answer to your question. When someone questioned R Salanter where his chidushim were from, he said “from Gemora”. The questioner was surprised – I do not know these Gemorahs [you can see here that the guy knew whole Gemora to say that!]. R Salanter said – it says so in _my_ Gemorah. I think he is talking about this expansive way of reading about lives of Tannaim and Amoraim.
This is not to defend my conjecture about ages of marriages, of course 🙂
See Tosfos Kiddushin 41A Dibur Hamaschil “Assur” about age of girls getting married in Tosfos times
a good case, thanks!
Dear Always,
Besides for the conjecture, you also erred. This sugyos are about betrothal because that when these
legal dilemmas arise. But the discussion today is about marriage and homemaking. You hinted that it was a year later. But that is a minimum, not a maximum. So in actuality it was probably later.Always_Ask_Questions,
“Still, you can look at a variety of cases and get a feeling when a case is a stretch case or reasonably a norm – in the latter case, it is discussed in many situations, with practical details. “
A category can be rare to occur in practice, but highly complicated halachically and thus require considerable discussion.
“Also, a notion that a man should not live/visit too long at his in-laws before of mother-in-law there. This hints that husband and bride’s mother are typically close to each other in age.”
No it doesn’t.
Always_Ask_Questions,
“do we read Gemora as a strictly legal cases or as a guide of living. Strictly legal reading defines edge cases indeed.”
Why does it have to be either-or? And it seems that you weren’t seeking a guide of living, but rather taking wild guesses at how people lived 2000 years ago. I mean, I really hope you’re not advocating for 12 year old girls to marry men their father’s age?
n0, a year does not sound like a minimum, but rather as usual and maybe even maximum, with older girls (12.5+) typically taking less time. And after the date is set and the chatan does not show up, he starts paying for her upkeep.
Avram, I agree on either-or, we obviously deal with the legal side, I was just stressing the other part that describes social norms, etza tova, important focus in life, etc.
I am in no way advocating doing this now, and as the tosfos helpfully referred to by am.yeshivish says – we change the norms according to social conditions. Similarly, during gemora times there were different recommended ages for boys in EY and Bavel depending on ability to travel to learn after the marriage
Dear Always,
Your looking at it from when this year starts as a maximum. That is correct. A year cannot be more than a year. But the discussion is about the recommended age. So, we don’t have any evidence for when to start counting the year.
What kind of question is this?? Bochurim should date when each one of them is ready to start dating. And not a minute before.
What if he so-called “isn’t ready” by time he’s Halachicly obligated to be married by?
22 for men
18 for women22
So, in olden times, the bochur, whatever his age was, would be given a year to prepare – get a house, have a job or business. It was often continue himself in the profession his father was, possibly getting funds from relatives to start on his own, if it was a capital-intensive business. The ketubah would be guaranteed, originally, from the set aside funds and later form all his properties. So, in the earlier system, the guy should at least have 200 zuz saved.
Maybe the same should be the criterion: he should at least be applying himself towards a way to support the family. Say, be in a medical school, or taking computer programming courses. If he has nothing except vague plans, what is a collateral for the ketubah?
Dear Always,
Your stretching things.
What if he isn’t halachically obligated “to be ready” to be married by time?
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