July 22, 2010 8:58 pm at 8:58 pm #592013
Tonight the government decided to postpone by 6 months a crucial Geyur Bill that would have strengthened the hand of the Rabbanut HaRashit and helped to halt Reform and Conservative “conversions” from creeping into Israel.
HaGon HaChacham Shlomo Amar shlita even demanded that the religious parties quite the government should the bill not pass. The reform and conservative movements in the US waged a serious battle that lead to the postponement of the bill, but for some reason the Orthodox movements outside of Israel remained more or less silent.
As a person living in Israel I cannot understand this! We cannot allow the reform and conservative “conversions” to reach Israel, we are the last place standing.July 22, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #690694
What happens if they do?
Will the sky fall?
Or perhaps we will all melt?
Seriously, why is this bill important, besides for Rav Amar saying so?
And why is quitting the government a bad thing?July 22, 2010 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #690695fabieMember
This law was debated by the religious parties whether it’s positive or negative.July 22, 2010 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #690696
Listen the average secular-mesorati Israeli is fed up of the Rabbanut, they seem it as too machmir. Many would be Gerim are starting to go outside the country to get their gerus done, because non-Torah conversions which are done outside of Israel are now recognized by the Israeli government, thank you to the Supreme Court of Injustice. Many Israelis are also starting to hookup with nonp-Jews who descend from the Soviet Union, because under the current regulations of the Rabbanut, many of the non-Jews are unable to convert.
The New Bill would decentralize Geuir and allow any frum rav recognized by the rabbanut in Eretz Yisrael to preform the Gerus, there by allowing individuals to choose less machmir, but yet still valid conversion process.
This bill will hopefully save the Jewish People and the authority of the Rabbanut and help keep the reform and conservative at bay.
Yes it is not a litchatchila situation that we have to make kulas in regard to geuir, but at this time we really have no choice. We will have a major assimilation problem on our hands here in Israel if something is not done fast.
So yes the sky may very well begin to fall and the Jewish People will begin to melt. Lastly we cannot keep having the government fall every year or two, we need stability.July 23, 2010 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #690697
“We will have a major assimilation problem on our hands here in Israel if something is not done fast.”
Why? Isn’t Israel the home of the “Traditional” Jew? And if they actually are serious about joining Klal Yisroel, they will make sure to do it right.
“Lastly we cannot keep having the government fall every year or two, we need stability.”
Change your form of government and get a constitution! Otherwise having elections often makes the parties accountable.July 23, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #690698
“Why? Isn’t Israel the home of the “Traditional” Jew? And if they actually are serious about joining Klal Yisroel, they will make sure to do it right.”
Yes while about 40% of Israeli’s define themselves as traditional it means many things to many people. The “tradition” of the younger generation is considerably weaker than their parent and the 20% who define themselves as secular would not mind to marry non-Jews at all. We have an explosive situation on our hands, we are sitting on a powder-keg.
Many non-Jews from the soviet union feel very much part of Am Yisrael, which is half the battle see the Rambam. Many want to officially convert, although are open about not wanting to keep a frum/religious lifestyle. There is room in Halacha to allow such people to convert, although the poskim who do hold in this manner are in the minority to say the least. As I said before this entire situation is very difficult one. We cannot afford to be two machmir.
EDITEDJuly 23, 2010 7:04 pm at 7:04 pm #690699
“There is room in Halacha to allow such people to convert, although the poskim who do hold in this manner are in the minority to say the least.”
So we will be willing to allow very doubtful Gerim into Klal Yisroel? Why is that a good thing?
If they want to be “part of Am Yisrael” but not Orthodox/Shomer Mitzvos, let Israeli citizenship become the new Geiur. Create a new court that converts based on military service, not halacha.
Why mix a very B’Deeved Halacha into the mix and create “Jews” that most of Yareim Klal Yisroel will not recognize?
Since it is Erev Shabbos I will abandon the Socratic Method and give the answer.
Separation of Church and State, and the lack of it in Israel.
So why not admit failure and create civil marriage, divorce, etc. and let each branch do as they please (and have two rings, if you are worried about Keddushi Biyah).
Lack of Separation of Church and State caused Emmanuel and the Chillul Hashem there, as well as the current Chillul Hashem due to the proposed law.
Isn’t it enough?July 25, 2010 3:06 am at 3:06 am #690700giyoress al pi halachaMember
Maybe because the US Rabbanim are up to their eyebrows trying to hold down the front here?
I delayed my halachic geirus for several years in order to find the right beis din whose gerus would be guaranteed to be accepted in EY, because I had already had a non-halachic conversion, and wanted to make sure I never had to do it again. I conduct myself properly and adhere to the mitzvos in a yeshivish community. Every time this subject comes up, I get nervous and wonder if this is the issue that will lead to my geirus being questioned. At this point, I’m just waiting for Moshiach and leaving the Israeli politics to the Israelis. Maybe that’s how the US Rabbonim feel also.July 25, 2010 3:13 am at 3:13 am #690701aries2756Participant
The reform and conservative Jews are so forgiving and understanding of the Arabs and Moslems that they would be believe that THEY want to convert as well!!! And they would convert them and send who knows how many moslems and Arab lovers to Israel under the guise of geirim to wreck havock among Israeli’s and Israeli politics and elections. Give me a break pleaaaaaaaaaaaase. Only the Halachic way of conversion is appropriate and safe for the future of Eretz Yisroel and K’lal Yisroel.July 25, 2010 10:31 am at 10:31 am #690702A600KiloBearParticipant
The problem is that most FSU shkootzim and shiksas who want to convert in EY do so for social acceptance and marriage. Even here in the FSU we have such problems now because it is “in” to be Jewish, and seemingly legit gerim who do go through the process backslide soon after their marriage to a born Jew.
While I do not accept any state of Israel definition of a Jew as legitimate, and believe we must keep our own sifrei yochsin, this bill is a step in the right direction. We need to make the FSU non-Jews uncomfortable in EY so that they return to an increasingly prosperous FSU.
Instead what is happening is that FSU JEWS find EY unwelcoming, and B”H they come back to their countries of origin and begin living as true Jews (just as many former Israelis end up doing tshuva in EY, Canada, France etc).
Still, EY is supposed to be for Jews, and the FSU erev rav should not feel comfortable or welcome there. They are the descendants of our tormentors and quite a few have been arrested for crimes ranging from typical shikker shkootzim cutting each other up to yes, vandalizing shuls. EY does not need such tuma.July 25, 2010 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #690703HelpfulMember
Like A6KB and GAW indicated, this bill is designed to make it easier for Russian shkotzim, who have no intention to keep a single Shabbos, to “convert” as “Jews.”
I see every reason to oppose it.July 25, 2010 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #690704HelpfulMember
The Drukman Conversion Factory has done enough damage to Klal Yisroel with their false converts on a massive scale. We don’t need that duplicated a hundred fold.July 26, 2010 1:50 pm at 1:50 pm #690705emoticon613Member
i have exactly the same issue in this matter as giyores al pi halacha. gaph – you go girl!!! through your efforts you have avoided much emotional suffering in the future.
i myself had to undergo a giyura lechumra because my mother’s geirus wasn’t recognized in e”y and it was cause for much distress all around. this is especially painful when it happens in a frum family, as is mine.
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