December 23, 2010 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #593695YerslMember
Exactly as the topic implies: wheres the mentchlichkyt nowadays??!! I was coming out of a store with my stroller following another lady with a stroller and two older girls, one of which was holding the door for her mother. I thought for sure this girl would have the decency to hold the door for me too. The entrance to the store I was coming out of is by a staircase. Going in is easier than going out because the door has to stay open in order to get out otherwise you literally have to hold the door with one hand and push the stroller down the last step with the other. I’m sure everyone knows how hard it is to push down carriage with one hand. Anyway, getting back to the story, so as I’m ready to go down the last step the door literally slams into my face. I struggled to get the door open and push the carriage out and the biggest chutzpah of all: The mother and daughters were just standing there and watching me. As I got out I tell the girl: “you were the last to leave, you couldn’t hold the door for me? very nice of you”. When they walked away I hear the mother asking her daughter “what did she say?”.
What chutzpah!!!December 23, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #738171blinkyParticipant
That definitely is chutzpah, but i try to find the considerate ones who DO care and DO help out holding open the door or whatever else it may be. Try to find the positive and don’t judge every body just on one incident.December 23, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #738172eclipseMember
Yeah,stick with us:)December 23, 2010 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #738173bptParticipant
Ouch, that is a painful story. But like Blinky and Eclipse say, that herd is a small exception to our otherwise very kind and courteous klal.
Focus on the rest of us!December 23, 2010 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #738174TheGoqParticipant
well on the subject of strollers when i walk sometimes ill see two mothers conversing ahead of me both with strollers that block the entire sidewalk rarely will one of them disturb their precious conversation to move a stroller so i dont have to walk in the mud have some decency move both strollers to one sideDecember 23, 2010 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #738175blueberrymuffinParticipant
Could there be any way to be dan l’kaf zchus?
Take what happened to me yesterday: Someone asked me to deliver a package to one of his clients. As I was handing the package to this client, having him sign a paper etc., this man turns to me and tells me, “I don’t want to hurt your feelings so I won’t talk now…”. You better believe I was very hurt! Not only did I now know that he thought ill of me – I had no clue why! But as I was walking home, I thought to myself that I have to be this person dan l’kaf zchus. So I decided that he was probably very upset about something else and wasn’t thinking when he told me that or maybe I misunderstood him…It still wasn’t right of him – but at least it made me feel better!December 23, 2010 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #738176
Kids today have more chutzpa than anytime since the churban.December 23, 2010 10:00 pm at 10:00 pm #738177
I am not fluent in Yiddish, but I think there are some errors of Yiddish usage in the opening post. First of all, I believe the correct spelling of one key word is mentschlichtheit. I think the gender (in the grammatical sense of “gender,” not the euphemism for sex) of mentsch is male, and therefore the word cannot be used in reference to women and girls, such as the girl holding (and then not holding) the door in the opening post. And the failure to hold the door was not an absence of mentchlichtheit (if that spelling is correct, it is a nuisance to type), it was just plain rude.
Secondly, failure to hold the door was not an act of chutzpah. I think chutzpah carries an implication of preposterous reasoning or gall, not simply rudeness, laziness or lack of chesed. The killer of his parents who asks for mercy because he is an orphan shows chutzpah. The murder was criminal, but the reasoning supporting the killer’s request for mercy shows chutzpah.December 23, 2010 11:30 pm at 11:30 pm #738178
I don’t think we should crucify this girl just yet. You don’t always realize that someone needs help. Sometimes you are just thinking about someone else.
I don’t think I am a bad person because I don’t walk around all day focusing on other peoples needs. I try to help people and I try to anticipate their needs, but things do slip by. It would have been mean if you had asked her for help and she refused.
I think you should find that girl and apologize.December 23, 2010 11:47 pm at 11:47 pm #738179amichaiParticipant
even if the mom was “watching” you as you say they were doing, her mind could have been miles away. she might have “seen” you, without really seeing. sorry it was hard for you.December 24, 2010 3:07 am at 3:07 am #738180metrodriverMember
nfgo3; I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings, but as you state in the beginning of the post that you are not fluent (That’s understating it a little.) in Yiddish. Now to your Critique (of the Original Poster.) “Mentschlicht/heit” is not a word used in Yiddish. Possibly. Not in German, either. In German (Who’s interested?!) it’s “Mentschlichheit”. But we are speaking (and critiqueing) Yiddish. Furthermore, the word, when spelled correctly, is Gender Neutral. (I hope you don’t need an explanation of that term.). “Chutzpah”, in its original form meant Rudensess. It was later expanded to mean “Unmitigated gall”, Courage. I will not critique a dental surgeon, for example. Because I have no familiarity with that line of work.December 24, 2010 3:20 am at 3:20 am #738181
The best is when you hold open the door for someone and they don’t even say thank you. I love yelling after them you’re welcome.
or even better, when your standing in a line somewhere and a guy cuts in front of you but when you react and are like excuse me whatever then they won’t talk to you but it’s alright if they push you.
I never understood that.December 24, 2010 6:15 am at 6:15 am #738182
menschlechkeit is not gender specific. It refers to the trait of a human being who has good middos (menschen does not refer only to men, it is more like mankind, the collective noun, which is inclusive of women). At least, this is how I understand it.
If someone holds a door open for me, I make a point of saying thank you, and sometimes remark, “Nice to see that chivalry is alive and well. Thank you.” That always brings a smile from them.December 24, 2010 10:58 am at 10:58 am #738184
Since when do you have to thank someone for holding a door!
do you thank people for walking out of your way on the street? no!December 24, 2010 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #738185haifagirlParticipant
The grocery store where I do most of my shopping has very narrow aisles. If I’m buying enough stuff that I need a cart, I will usually park it in an out-of-the-way spot (or as much out-of-the-way as possible), then pick a couple items off the shelf and bring them over to my cart, and go to the next shelf and repeat.
Other people take their carts into the narrow aisles and just totally block them so nobody can get through.
On the other hand, I have to say I really enjoy shopping there late on Friday morning. The store is really crowded, but everybody is lined up so nicely at the cash registers – men in one line, women in the other.December 24, 2010 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #738186
I don’t agree with that either.
Often, the person is thinking about something else and does not notice that you held the door specifically for them. They see an open door and go through.
If you are only doing it for the thank you, I’d rather you not do it.December 24, 2010 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #738187chayav inish livisumayParticipant
in the alter heim people had much more menchlichkeit but unfotunately nowadays the kinder just arent the same as they used to bee.December 24, 2010 8:07 pm at 8:07 pm #738188lakewoodwifeParticipant
Actually I do try to say thank you to people who hold the door for me AND to people who move out of my way on the street!!! I was taught that that is the proper way to behave.December 26, 2010 12:51 am at 12:51 am #738190
PBA – ha you wish I’m doing it for the thank you. It’s your issue if you want to say thank you or not. But I still think its a nice thing to say thank you, even if the person holding the door open for you is of the opposite gender. We’re still human. But what to expect, not everyone follows the chazl of “Derech Eretz Kadma L’Torah”December 26, 2010 2:21 am at 2:21 am #738191
Since when do you have to thank someone for holding a door!
do you thank people for walking out of your way on the street? no!
Where were you brought up? In Harlem?December 26, 2010 2:59 am at 2:59 am #738192
My remark about doing it for the thank you was sarcastic, but the point is that you should not feel any different about it whether you get a thank you or not.
In any event, my main point was that people don’t always realize you held the door for them, and are not paying attention to you. I don’t think they are rude.December 26, 2010 11:04 am at 11:04 am #738193
Firstly what’s harlem?
secondly since when do you have to thank someone for holding a door this is nearly as ridiculous as the “calling adults by first name” thread.December 26, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #738194
“secondly since when do you have to thank someone for holding a door “
EVERY time they do this for you. Didn’t your mother teach you about good manners? I am surprised that any frum person whould say what you just did.
Popa is correct that not always does someone realize you held the door for them. But if they DO realize it, a simple thanks is warranted. Nobody is your personal doorman. It is a kindness that they held it for you. And people who do not appreciate that kindness deserve to have the door slammed in their faces. JMO.December 26, 2010 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #738195
I wanted to add, if a NON-JEW holds the door for you, be especially makpid to say thank you and make a Kiddush Hashem. I have unfortunately seen the opposite when a bulvanish person swept past the guy who was holding the door for him, like he was royalty and expected it to be done, without even looking at the person. I was coming through the doorway next, and the guy continued to hold the door for me (even after being treated rudely by the other person), and I said thank you, and what a pleasure it was to see that chivalry is alive and well. He was most appreciative of my acknowledgement of his nicety.December 26, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #738196
“if a NON-JEW holds the door for you, be especially makpid to say thank you and make a Kiddush Hashem.”
Au contraire. if a JEW holds the door for you, be especially makpid to say thank you and make a Kiddush Hashem.
A real Kiddush Hashem is in front of Jews, not non-JewsDecember 26, 2010 6:23 pm at 6:23 pm #738197
yep the deoyrayso of chilul hashem is yidden goyim is derabonon
but this proves my point that it’s a kiddush hashem to say thanks it’s not an expected response
I mean i understand if someone offers you a treat you’d say thanks but there are some things expected of people which do not deserve any thanks and holding a door is one of them it’s no big dealDecember 26, 2010 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #738198
It IS an expected response, and because so many people fail to do as expected, it makes a Kiddush Hashem when YOU do.December 26, 2010 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #738199
Au contraire. if a JEW holds the door for you, be especially makpid to say thank you and make a Kiddush Hashem.
A real Kiddush Hashem is in front of Jews, not non-Jews
A real mensch makes a K”H wherever he goes and with whomever he is, Jew or not.December 26, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #738200basmelechParticipant
First of all it does not matter how you spell menschlichkeit in English because it is not an English word, but, I believe this is the most accepted spelling. Second of all, I do believe that one should hold the door for someone coming after them. You should always check if someone is behind you and hold the door until he/she gets through or holds the door him/herself.I also think you should say thank you for any courtesy given whether it is door holding or moving over in the street or a chore that your kids or husband do, even if it’s their job. I thank my mailperson for delivering mail even though she is paid to do so etc.Everyone should teach their kids basic common courtesy toward others and also how to say thank you etc.December 26, 2010 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #738201
Seriously, what people don’t realize that if a door is open it means someone is standing there holding it for them? I mean no matter where your mind is…
It’s true that sure you don’t have to say thank you when someone holds the door open for you but often if you don’t say thank you for something so small then something big you won’t either say thank you for.December 26, 2010 8:45 pm at 8:45 pm #738202
Thank you, metrodriver. My feelings are not hurt.
Oomis 1105: Chivalry is a culture and set of beliefs that is quite dead as the fashion of wrought iron armor. That some people hold doors open for others means that Chesed is alive and well, and will be as long as there are Jews, we can all agree, will be until Moshiach comes. Just to be clear, when a Jew helps someone whom he/she is not directly obligated to help, he/she is being a good Jew, not a good Samaritan.December 26, 2010 8:47 pm at 8:47 pm #738203
One other thing: Would Oomis 1105 and metrodriver please get together and tell me the correct spelling of “mentchlichkyt”.December 26, 2010 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #738205cvParticipant
“I mean i understand if someone offers you a treat you’d say thanks but there are some things expected of people which do not deserve any thanks and holding a door is one of them it’s no big deal”
Do you ever hold a door for somebody?February 8, 2011 6:44 am at 6:44 am #738206hadassaParticipant
I ALWAYS look behind me when going through the door to see if someone is following for whom I can hold it. Unfortunately, “unzer” are very remiss in this courtesy. I notice that African-Americans are the most appreciative when one holds the door, always thanking. They also reciprocate!
During this winter, when many streets have only narrow paths shoveled, I’ve often moved to the side and waited to let people pass. It is disheartening to see how few people acknowledge this
consideration with a “thank you.” Fewer still have moved aside for me, an older person.February 8, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #738207ShrekMember
sometimes people don’t realize the value of their small acts of kindness. It was only after I starting pushing a stroller that I realized how helpful it is when someone holds open the door.
Another small kindness that makes a big difference: when you are driving behind someone who is trying to park a car, just stop & WAIT! The extra 30 seconds will not kill you. Yes, you have the right of way…but more time is wasted by people trying to squeeze around the car waiting to park than would be spent on just letting the poor guy back up into the spot!February 8, 2011 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #738208February 8, 2011 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #738209ShrekMember
actually Yochie, men get into more car accidents than women. insurance rates don’t lie!
and thanks for not honking. sounds like you drive a “yeshivish” car—everything makes noise but the horn!February 8, 2011 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #738210
Shrek – Right on! You know my car?February 8, 2011 10:06 pm at 10:06 pm #738211seeallsidesParticipant
Hard to understand that a thread on the mentschlichkeit issue is populated by comments on the correct spelling and usage of the word. We can all be dan l’kaf zchus….that is not the issue. There is a basic lack of mentschlichkeit prevalent. You better realize it and deal with it, because it is really terrible. It doesn’t mean that there are not wonderful kids out there, but nobody can deny that there is a plague of inconsiderate public behavior rampant.February 8, 2011 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #738212
One other thing: Would Oomis 1105 and metrodriver please get together and tell me the correct spelling of “mentchlichkyt”. “
There is never one correct spelling for a non-English word that is being transliterated. But I spell is this way: menschlechkeit.February 8, 2011 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #738213always hereParticipant
random acts of kindness: gender-less, race-less.
I, (of the ‘grey haired’ generation, was brought up to)thank basically anyone & everyone for whatever they do for me… & do for them, as well, as best as I can.
I thank the car svc driver, (in the past- the bus driver), the person behind the desk who gives me info, the receptionist who takes my paperwork, the person who holds the door, one who steps aside to let me out of the elevator, the deliveryperson, & even the policeman/woman, firemen, & Armed service people for their service to us & our country.
seriously, how much time does it take out of your life? and it’s always an added bonus to get a (sometimes delightfully surprised) smile in return!
😀February 8, 2011 11:23 pm at 11:23 pm #738214NiazikParticipant
Poor girl who most probably did not realize (spaced out/did not see) that she should open the door is now almost a villain.
Let’s try not to belittle real chutzpah (which is plentiful today) by calling everything chutzpah.February 9, 2011 11:15 am at 11:15 am #738215600 Kilo BearMember
I was heading to the subway to get from Brooklyn to Manhattan and hadn’t learned the parsha yet so when I saw a woman I did not know with a carriage who could not get into a store, I offered to watch the baby, figuring that besides everything else I could learn a bit with the chumash I was carrying while I waited outside with the baby. It was cold which hardly bothered me – but when I offered to watch “for a few minutes” the baalas midois replied “Maybe you can watch for twenty minutes?”
I could not even reply, only because I don’t use mikveh dressing room Yiddish phrases in public.February 9, 2011 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #738216HealthParticipant
TheLargeWhiteUrsineReturns – I hope you said NO!
What’s a “White Ursine”?February 9, 2011 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #738217always hereParticipant
I don’t have any filters on my computer… do they disallow one from using ‘google’? ;-PFebruary 9, 2011 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #738218
White Ursine – Polar bear?????February 9, 2011 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #738219
LWU, you stated that you did not know the woman in question, right? I am shocked that ANY mother would even toy with the idea of having a total stranger watch her child, in OR out of the cold, out of the mom’s line of vision. People kidnap babies of such careless parents,and if anyone would have noticed the mother TALKING to you, they would assume she knew you and not pay attention, were you so inclined.February 9, 2011 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #738220
White Ursine – are you (something, something)KiloBear in disguise?February 9, 2011 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #738221600 Kilo BearMember
Yes I am the 600KiloBear, back for Adar only.February 9, 2011 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #738222
HAH! I KNEW IT!!!! Large white ursine, indeed! Welcome back, Adar or not.
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