Protesting Same-Gender Marriage in New Jersey
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October 21, 2013 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #610961Bubby BParticipant
Considering the large ultra-orthodox population in Lakewood, NJ and the religious Sefardi population in Long Branch, Deal, Elberon.
Has everyoine been sleeping over their Gemara???
How come I’ve heard nothing about protests????
Where are your voices in “Dinah d’Malchusah”???
Why hasn’t the religious community come out screaming when there’s truly something to scream about – instead of being busy with nonsense such as ridiculing Sushi – declaring it Treif.
It seems to me our values are a bit messed up – I shudder to think of all those who may indeed be culpable in not protesting this decadence in our society.
There is ganging up against those who report incidents of child abuse. But for this gross outright approval of DECAY in society-
VAYIDOM!???!!!!October 21, 2013 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #985980akupermaParticipant
Marriage is an economic relationship involving sharing property and mutal liability for debts (and joint and several responsibility for raising children). There is nothing in halacha about two men, or two women, or any other numbers, entering into contracts to share property, being jointly and severally liable for their debts, and to share a household.
If we get too upset about what goyin and frei Jews do in bed, we’ll be very upset. Our objection to gays (not to mention “straights” who reject conventional marriage) is not a function of economics and contracts.
According to Jewish tradition, the people in Sodom got in trouble for their social welfare policies (and being perverts in public policy matters, carried it over to their private affairs). It is the Christians who hold that their “sin” had to do with anything sexual. What the Christians called “unnatural” and referred to as “sodomy”, we call “not according to her way” (and has nothing to do with Sodom).October 21, 2013 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #985981streekgeekParticipant
Quite frankly, I do not see anything wrong with the fact that NJ agrees that religion can not and should not dictate the law. If you are opposed the separation of church and state I would find THAT quite horrifying, and as a Jew, quite scary. No one would like if the Christians proposed that we can not keep kosher or keep Shabbos… Not allowing gay marriage is the same thing. It’s projecting religious law on the society. So if you are pro separation of church and state and pro religious freedom you should be pro gay rights.October 21, 2013 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #985982streekgeekParticipant
To clarify: When I say pro gay rights I mean pro the fact that it is legal. I personally think it is an outright immoral and a pure abomination.October 21, 2013 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #985983DaMosheParticipant
I wrote to my state representative a few times urging them not to allow it. Of course, I’m not Ultra-Orthodox like those you are calling out – I’m Modern Orthodox.
Maybe they’re not protesting because they saw Bloomberg get honored by Agudas Yisroel a few years ago while campaigning to legalize it in NY? Maybe they thought the gedolim supported it?October 21, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #985984simcha613Participant
I am absolutely sickened by same sex marriage. But at the same time, I understand that my disgust over it comes solely from the Torah. If I weren’t Jewish, or even frum, I would probably be pro same gender marriage, even if I would find it nauseating, simply because I would probably be pro-equality. That being said, I can’t find fault with people who are pro gay marriage as I would probably be one myself if I didn’t have the Torah. And since they don’t have the Torah to guide them, how can I impose my religious beliefs on them?
In addition, it doesn’t seem like there is any legal basis to stop it. The main argument is that it is immoral… but who decided morality? If the government has the ability to decide what is and what isn’t moral (assuming no one is being hurt), what’s stopping them from deciding that something that we do as religious Jews is immoral (like Bris Milah)? And since the protests seem to have no basis in US secular law, I think our protests would be looked down upon and seen as a joke.
In conclusion, I detest gay marriage and I wish it wouldn’t be legal… but you won’t find me in public protesting, just praying to G-d that somehow it will end.October 21, 2013 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #985985mybrotherMember
Nj is the 14th state to take this on with “pride” lol
YOU ask why is no1 protesting? same reason why alot of jews in NJ voted for “Corie booker”,
He was honored & endorsed by jewish organizations…. and… hes all about the SS marriage biz.
yea… dont know how they missed that…. “oh, is that a check in the mail” 🙂
and to all the ppl running to israel, just wait, Their just a couple years behind america, it’ll be there too before you know it.October 21, 2013 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #985986Mayan_DvashParticipant
Marriage is more than an economic relationship. Do me a favor and call those gay unions something else. ??? ?????, anyone?
;October 21, 2013 6:07 pm at 6:07 pm #985988kollel_wifeParticipant
1. An immoral society affects us very much, no matter how much we try to shield ourselves.
2. This type of marriage will cause a breakdown of the family unit. Children won’t be growing up with a father and mother figure. It also affects modern orthodox (YCT types etc) who now want to include this type of lifestyle as normal, although the Torah is clearly against it.
Without getting too complicated, to live in a society that allows such a thing will impact our lives and lower the values in goyishe society as well.October 21, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #985989yaakov doeParticipant
We and others opposed to this are unfortunatly a minority so there’s nothing we can do to stop it. What is common in the general population as far as relationships between men an women is also contrary to our values. We must stengthen our resolve not to be influenced by what’s around us and stand apart.October 21, 2013 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #985990jewishfeminist02Member
A sexual relationship between two men is called to’eivah, abomination. But guess what? Plenty of other things are called to’eivah (for instance, kashrus) and we don’t seem to protest against them when we see them carried out among non-Jews.October 21, 2013 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #985991heretohelpMember
Kollel Wife- will your family unit be broken down by it?
You can’t protest what other people do in their most private relationships. Some people think that infant circumcision is barbaric? But you know what, people have a zone of privacy how to run their own life. Don’t do it for yourself and you’ll be fine. And don’t tell me about living in a society without morals, the goyim, lower, blah blah blah. In the U.S., Jews get to leave work early on Friday and now gays can marry each other. That’s how it is.October 21, 2013 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #985992Lost1970Member
>> Plenty of other things are called to’eivah (for
>> instance, kashrus) and we don’t seem to protest
>> against them when we see them carried out among
Most food including pork is 100% kosher for Noachites.October 21, 2013 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #985993berntoutParticipant
jf02, yet for those other toeivas they person didnt get, you know, stoned to death. So theres a very large difference in severity in this toeiva and others like kashrus. And we should oppose kashrus and other toeiva violations as well.October 21, 2013 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #985994🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
Lost1970- Look into it, it’s not so simple. Due to the way many meat plants are run, the meat is technically ever min hachai, since it is separated before the animal is completely dead.October 21, 2013 9:30 pm at 9:30 pm #985995PBTMember
Although the current mainstream seems to have endorsed immorality across the board, I think that our relative silence about it is, mostly, frustration about how things like this have been going the last few years. It is my prediction that no serious candidate for President of any party will ever again oppose same-sex marriage, or a host of other moral losses because they will stand no chance of winning.
What I would observe is that the talking that goes on during davening (including by Roshei Yeshiva, etc.) indicates very strongly that we’re not paying the attention we need to to what we say to Hashem. Perhaps it’s mida kneged mida that he’s not paying attention to our lip service for His Torah in regard to the moral issues of our time.October 21, 2013 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #985996Rosh ChamParticipant
I dont like it but, separation between church and state is a must, what happens when they come for shechita or bris melah?October 23, 2013 12:05 am at 12:05 am #985997
I heard a shiur on this by Rabbi Wallerstein a while ago. Iforgot most of the shiur, I only remember this one line-
Gay people are soldiers in a war against Hashem…
I am terrified because homosexuality is what made Hashem destroy the world in the times of Noach. And I am crying for Hashem because He gives everyone so much good and look, a war is being waged against Him and we’re just saying,” we wont be able to change anything…” or other pointless stuff like that.October 23, 2013 12:35 am at 12:35 am #985998
“what happens when they come for shechita or bris melah?”
Well, when brit milah was attacked in San Francisco last year people from every part of the political spectrum came out to support it, the California legislature (dominated by liberal Democrats) enacted a law to prevent such attacks-by-referendum in the future, and Gov. Jerry Brown signed it.October 23, 2013 12:37 am at 12:37 am #985999
“If we get too upset about what goyin and frei Jews do in bed, we’ll be very upset. “
It does seem to be a losing political issue. The right wing Republican who is running for Governor of Virginia tried to bring back Virginia’s sodomy prohibitions and he is now down by 17 points in the Republican-biased Rasmussen poll.October 23, 2013 12:40 am at 12:40 am #986000
“we don’t seem to protest against them when we see them carried out among non-Jews.”
The United States of America rejected the Noachide laws in 1788 when it adopted a Constitution that allows idol worshipers to hold any office, even President of the United State. Many frum Jews voted last fall for a polytheist for that office. What is the justification for objecting to same sex marriage but not idolatry?October 23, 2013 1:49 am at 1:49 am #986001TheGoqParticipant
I have no problem with same gender marriage i just dont.October 23, 2013 1:55 am at 1:55 am #986002
Charliehall: Who was the polytheist? Maybe they’re Meikil like the Rama’s reading of Tosfos, even if it does seem incredibly Dochak.October 23, 2013 3:09 am at 3:09 am #986003Lost1970Member
>> Lost1970- Look into it, it’s not so simple. Due to the
>> way many meat plants are run, the meat is technically
>> ever min hachai, since it is separated before the
>> animal is completely dead.
Ouch! Where have you read about it?October 23, 2013 3:15 am at 3:15 am #986004popupMember
Why worry about something that’s inevitable and Jews are considered a liberal minority that are many times associated with gays. Separation of Church and State we can only do what we want when they keep this doctrine. We practice ours and ignore what we can’t change (it might be detrimental to change it)October 23, 2013 3:17 am at 3:17 am #986005HaKatanParticipant
It is disingenuous to compare a politician’s polytheism with society’s normalization of same-gender marriage.
Same-gender “marriage” is thoroughly amoral, and affects everyone, whereas an individual’s practice of idolatry does not, and certainly not anywhere close to how same-gender marriage affects everyone.
Also, unlike a previous poster’s claim, marriage is not merely a state-sanctioned financial process.
Marriage affects children and custody of those children. It is plain to any objective person that a child needs a father and mother, not two of either one. It is similarly obvious that, barring extreme and unusual circumstances, a child needs the child’s biological father and biological mother.
Same-gender marriage is a terrible mess for children. The chutzpah of any society to allow this is appalling. That any Jew could condone this is even more so.
In addition to the severe impact on children, same-gender marriage also, as one of its goals, “normalizes” this toeiva. Since a person is, to at least some extent, the product of the society in which he lives (even if he is in as insular Jewish society), this societal recognition of same-gender marriage as “normal” is an attitude which will, CH”V, seep into our own culture as well.October 23, 2013 8:17 am at 8:17 am #986006
Do any of you people claiming “separation of church and state” have any clue what that actually means? It’s the principle that a religious body does not have the authority to mandate the secular laws of the state and the state does not have the authority to interfere in the internal rituals of the religious body.
What it absolutely DOES NOT mean is that I as a citizen am not allowed to use my democratic rights to vote and free speech to protest something I am against simply because the basis of my being against it is rooted in religion. Choosing your morality and voting according to it based on your religious beliefs is a GUARANTEED RIGHT under the concept of separation of church and state… not a negation of it!!! Trying to advance your moral beliefs in society be they based on religion or the man on the moon, so long as you do it in a legal way, is one of the main reasons America was designed as a liberal democracy in the first place! For heaven’s sake take a civics class people!!!
The fact of the matter is that while the majority of our Torah deals with laws only pertaining to us, homosexuality is absolutely prohibited amongst all of humanity be it Jews or non-Jews. So you may wish to sit back and say it doesn’t matter to you or the Torah doesn’t justify you protesting if it’s concerning goyim but Hashem cares about it since He bothered putting it in the Torah and making it such a chamur sin. And goyim are obligated in this as well so we most certainly have a religious obligation to try and fight it. And so long as you protest in a legally allowed way you have every right in the world to do so based on the constitution and founding principles of America itself.
Also one other interesting thing to think about – even if you wish to convince yourself that it doesn’t matter because it’s just goyim anyway (which is totally incorrect) what about any gay Jews who, Hashem yerachem, wish to take advantage of these laws to further their sinful lifestyle? Maybe you want to counter that if their going to do the act they’ll do it anyway whether a legal marriage can result from it or not, but making it legal certainly takes away a stigma so even if you can’t stop them as individuals, why on earth do you think it’s ok to let them be actively encouraged by society to do so??
Why did Lot offer up his own daughters to be abused by the mob in Sodom? Because he felt even something as evil and disgusting as that would still be better than allowing them to have homosexual relations!!! And you want to sit back and say that it’s not a big deal?!? Are you kidding me?October 23, 2013 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #986008SanityIsOverratedParticipant
The problem with fighting gay marriage, is we should have started it long ago. Where were we when divorce was allowed according to law for ridiculous reasons? Why wasn’t cheating made into a punishable offense? How could we have allowed premarital relations. No my friends, this battle is over. We stayed neutral during most of the war, so how can we protest now when the state’s legal marriages do not resemble our religious ones anymore?
On another half related note, as much of an abomination as it is, how can we judge anyone with this teivah? I don’t hear any religious folk standing up and saying, “I am gay, but I choose to marry the opposite gender.” I don’t think our culture will be able to see it as a choice, until we somehow show them it is.October 23, 2013 10:57 pm at 10:57 pm #986009
I find it hard to believe that this new law will cause more gay RELATIONSHIPS. This is really a legal thing; in the secular world, gay relationships are already basically accepted. I don’t think that from that perspective, except as a symbol (which one could argue is a point but I think it’s a limited one as, like I said above, attitudes aren’t changing all that much).
assurnet: Obviously true, but what can you do about it now?
HaKatan: As I mentioned above, gay relationships are, for all practical purposes, normal already. It’s this normality that is CAUSING gay marriage to be passed into law, not vice versa. If gay marriages were not accepted, the bill would never in a million years pass.
In essence, the same people who found gay relationships unacceptable before the bill will find them unacceptable afterward. The Torah will not change with the New Jersey law.October 23, 2013 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #986010🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
writersoul- well saidOctober 23, 2013 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #986011
Thank you, Gamanit!
And in the last sentence of my first paragraph, if anyone paid enough attention to notice it was missing, it should finish with “…gay marriage is in and of itself harmful.”October 24, 2013 12:58 am at 12:58 am #986012karagnosticMember
I am curious to know why there are people on this thread who believe that non jews can’t have homosexual relationships. Source?October 24, 2013 1:23 am at 1:23 am #986013
Karagnostic: Try Rambam Melachim… 1:6 maybe? Or maybe it’s 6:6? But it’s in there.October 24, 2013 1:28 am at 1:28 am #986014
I am not a rabbi, but my understanding of why non-Jews cant have homosexual relationships is because Noach’s generation weren’t Jewish, yet when homosexuality was legalized, Hashem destroyed the world. If it happened then it can happen now.October 24, 2013 2:40 am at 2:40 am #986015
” Gay people are soldiers in a war against Hashem…”
This fails to consider there are frum gays and lesbians in every Jewish community. There are gay men and women who went to the most frum yeshivas and bais yaakovs and yet live a frum lifestyle.
Gay people are no more soldiers in a war against Hashem then are people who don’t wear tzitzis on a four cornered garment.
Also, for those who feel threatened by the family unit not being there, or because a father or mother figure is not there: if this were so, we should take away children who are raised by single mothers and single fathers. Chas V’Shalom they should be raised by only gender!
I just don’t understand why so many Jewish people get so stuck on what other Jews do within the privacy of their own home. Personally, I feel there are more pressing issues to the Jewish world than this. I just cannot fathom why anybody would say that two men or women who are in a loving relationship and raise children right is >>>>>>> than an abusive hetero relationship where children are neglected and/or abused.
Edit: as is clear, I have no problem against SSM. So long as two individuals love each other and treat each other with respect and dignity, it is a relationship that should not be looked down upon, but should rather be praised.October 24, 2013 9:20 am at 9:20 am #986016
Karagnostic – homosexual relations are explicitly forbidden to gentiles. See Rambam Hilchot Melachim uMilchamot 9:5. If I’m not mistaken they could possibly even be chayav mitah.
Also check out Rashi on Bereshit 6:2, and the Meam Loez towards the end of Bereshit and his discussion of Sodom in Vayeira. Keep in mind these sources are discussing non-Jews.
writersoul – it doesn’t make a difference if the majority of society accepts this as ok or that there isn’t much chance of being able to make a difference. That’s the whole point of hishtadlus – you do whatever is in your ability and you leave the rest up to Hashem. It’s not ok to say, “the economy is in a slump with record levels of unemployment and parnassa is just too hard so I’m going to give up.” You have to do whatever hishtadlus you can to make a living in addition to then trusting Hashem will provide you with whatever is fitting. Even if the job market stinks you still have to write up a resume and at least give it a try. Here too – Hashem has granted you the hishtadlus options of voting and using your right to free speech to try and influence the public. Even though the odds are slim in your favor and it’s up to Hashem at the end of the day, why not at least do what you can seeing as He has given you a chance? Nobody is expecting you to start up a one man revolution but at least do something.
This is perhaps the underlying point I was trying to get across in my comment but perhaps I should have just come out and said it m’furash: people have the opportunity to take some sort of steps hishtadlus-wise but they don’t. They instead make the claims that either it’s not really so bad (or even bad at all) or there’s no point to trying to do anything. However this is entirely untrue, it IS that bad and you DO have the chance to do SOMETHING even if you don’t have a great chance of succeeding. However people lie to themselves because it is much more comfortable than facing the truth that Hashem put something in the Torah and I could frankly care less about it. Perhaps this isn’t the case with everyone but I have a strong feeling it applies to many if not most.
what’s in a name – nobody is advocating going in to people’s private bedrooms and monitoring what goes on there… don’t be ridiculous. What we are speaking about here is the government legally sanctioning a type of public relationship which inherently implies societal acceptance if not approval. As a member of that society with a chance to put in your two cents, by choosing to go with the flow you are using your voice to support such behavior. You yourself have expressed you don’t understand why some people feel it is so important but the fact of the matter is the Torah is very clear on this issue – you don’t have a problem with the opinions of some frum Jews, you have a problem with the Torah.October 24, 2013 1:40 pm at 1:40 pm #986017
I have said this before on this topic, but in the past 100 years, it was illegal for inter-racial couples to marry. At the time, many Americans thought that to allow such inter-racial couples to marry would “imply societal acceptance if not approval”.
The same arguments made against inter-racial couples for marrying are now used for same-gender couples and are ridiculous and unwarranted.October 24, 2013 7:28 pm at 7:28 pm #986018
whats in a name – from a Torah perspective there is absolutely no comparison whatsover between two people of a different race marrying each other and two men “marrying” each other. There isn’t any issur in the Torah amongst Jews or non-Jews for two people with different colored skin to marry each other. For two men to have relations with each other, even if both aren’t Jewish, is one of the biggest issurim out there. One is a case of a clear and obvious Torah prohibition, the other is just simple racism.
To try and compare these cases is a fallacy – they aren’t even in the same moral ballpark. I truly don’t mean this to be in an insulting manner but if you really don’t think there is a moral problem with homosexuality then are you a religious Jew? If not then for the sake of not confusing other readers here maybe you should explain that cleary.October 24, 2013 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #986019
“is one of the biggest issurim out there”.
Let’s please not begin as human beings to decide what the biggest issur out there is. Because if so, I’d have to throw Sinas Chinam up there much higher than SSM. The second Beis Hamikdash wasn’t destroyed because of SSM. It was destroyed because of baseless hatred. That being the case, I don’t see any Jews out there rallying against Sinas Chinam!
When Hashem destroyed Noach’s generation, he didn’t wipe them out because of SSM. He destroyed them because they acted without regard for other human beings.
I’m not trying to convince anyone whether or not SSM is “moral” or not. That decision is between Hashem and the individual. I certainly cannot speak for HKBH. He called it an abomination. He also called being sleazy in business practices an abomination. And again, why aren’t we out protesting this? This is CERTAINLY worse than SSM! One is a Torah issur between ben adom l’makom and the other is both between Hashem AND other Jews.
” If not then for the sake of not confusing other readers here maybe you should explain that cleary.”
Other readers: please take my opinion with a grain of salt. I am no Gadol Hador.October 24, 2013 10:15 pm at 10:15 pm #986020
WIAN – That’s a cute drasha about sinat chinam but halachikly speaking there is most certainly room to classify homosexual relations as one of the biggest issurim. There are only three categories of sin that one is obligated to give up their life rather than commit and sinat chinam ain’t one of them. However arayot is. And of the list of arayot, homosexual relations is one of the most chamur because it is not even a sin most normal people want to partake in. The gemera (Gittin I believe) says that a slave ship was taking Jewish boys and girls back to Rome for forced prostitution and the girls all jumped off the ship and drowned themselves rather than suffer that fate. The boys then made a kal v’chomer and said that if the girls gave their life rather than commit a sin that is natural, how much more so should we give our lives rather than do a sin that is unnatural and they all drowned themselves as well.
As far as the dor hamabul – learn up your Chazal. Despite the sinfulness of the generation Hashem didn’t decree destruction on them until they legally sanctioned homosexual and beastial marriages. The theft between them is simply what sealed the deal but gay and animal marriage is what brought about the decree itself.
You don’t need to take it upon yourself to convince anyone whether gay marriage is moral or how Hashem feels about it – He has already done that for us quite explicitly in the Torah. What I can’t figure out is how there is even a sheila?
You are correct that things such as dishonesty in business are reprehensible. The reason nobody organizes protests against it is that it’s not practical to make a protest for every sin in the world. And so to we don’t make protests against homosexuality – have you ever in your life heard of a Jewish protest against people stam being gay? Nobody is suggesting that. This thread started in the first place because people are rising up and trying to get the government to legally sanction this sin and state that the government as mandated democractially by the people think that it’s ok. THAT is what the protest was being suggested about. Not that there are gay people, but that they want the government to officially state it’s acceptable and that just as they are advocating their rights to further their morality and cause, we as Torah Jews should also use that same right to stand up and voice our objection.
Let’s take your example – sleazy business. It happens and we don’t organize protests because it’s somewhat just an unfortunate part of life. However, were a group of people to actually have the gumption to petition the government to make sleazy business legal wouldn’t it also be appropriate for Torah Jews to stand up and oppose such legislation?
You seem to have a problem with what you perceive as judging other people. I agree with you – it’s not necessarily our place to judge them. Thank G-d I’m not gay but that’s not to say I don’t have my own personal truckload full of aveirot and yeter haras do deal with. Therefore it’s not mine, or any other person’s place to judge somebody for what must be an unthinkably hard challenge to overcome. But that isn’t what’s being discussed. What we are discussing isn’t the individual’s actions but society itself taking something that is wrong and trying to say its right – especially when we have a chance to voice our opinion and disagree. It’s one thing to say that we all have our own challenges and yetzer hara to deal with and if somebody fell into something I’m not going to judge him because that is his personal test from Hashem. It is something else entirely to take an act blatently prohibited and despised by Hashem and try to say it’s now fine and dandy.October 24, 2013 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #986021
assurnet: I told you, I think you’re right, you can protest whatever you want. My only point is that it’s too late to say anything by this point. Maybe we’re just talking in circles.October 25, 2013 12:27 am at 12:27 am #986022sharpMember
writersoul, I think assurnet was responding to the poster who made ridiculous comparisons and brought up non-sensical points. Not to you.
I don’t know if those comparisons are a laughing matter or a crying matter. Very sad.October 25, 2013 2:22 am at 2:22 am #986023
sharp: assurnet addressed SOMETHING to me- he/she could have addressed it to the wrong person, because I don’t really get why what he says has anything to do with what I said, but there’s definitely something with my name on it.October 25, 2013 6:52 am at 6:52 am #986024
Writersoul – when I was responding to you I tried to list your name… the majority of my responses have been the “what’s in a name” and not to you
Sharp – “I don’t know if those comparisons are a laughing matter or a crying matter. Very sad.”
Well said. You know, I think it’s a little ironic that people are trying to suggest Jews are insulated enough that a society which accepts gay marriage wouldn’t have an influence on them – yet on a forum of a website like Yeshiva News there are posters saying they don’t even think there is anything with it in the first place. Let’s forget about the potential influence it could have… has anyone stopped to think of how much influence it ALREADY has had?October 25, 2013 10:42 am at 10:42 am #986025
Assurnet, a couple of items:
1. You might be arguing against yourself. I think that there is some confusion engendered (no pun intended) by conflating “SSM” with the forbidden act. The forbidden act is one of the arayos, no better or worse than any of the others. Adultery used to be a crime here. Why aren’t we protesting decriminalization?
2. I don’t like the use of the term “Toeivah Marriage”. True, the forbidden act is called “toeivah” but that is not a halachic term. The Torah penalty is the same as that for adultery. Toeivah it is a term the Torah uses to describe an act that is not only assur but repulsive. Note that the Torah also refers to dishonest business practice as “toeiva”. nevertheless, Bernie Madoff is not chayiv skeilah.
3. Civil marriage is not, nor was it ever, about personal relations. It neither sanctions or permits those acts. Civil marriage, same gender or otherwise, is strictly about spousal protections and inheritance. Note that no penalty accrues to couples, SS or otherwise, that live together without benefit of a license. Many among us have established batei ne’eman b’Yisroel without bothering to get a civil marriage license. Being married K’daas Moshe v’Yisroel is sufficient.
4. I’m impressed and pleased that so many of the posters on this thread are not only good Jews but good Americans as well. They understand that the rights, protections, and privileges guaranteed by the Constitution are not needed for thoughts, words and actions we agree with, It’s precisely because that the Constitution guarantees freedom both of and from religion that we Jews enjoy a station in society unique in all of our 2000 year golus (per Berel Wein). Not even in the Golden Age of Spain were Jews so thoroughly accepted and integrated into the fabric of the Nation nor as free from religious discrimination or coercion. The same First Amendment that countenances license and debauchery is also the First amendment that guarantees our mosdos and our lives as ovdei haShem.
I once made a liar simcomment to Dr. Abraham Twerski to the effect that those mosdos and practices that we enjoy in complete freedom are the direct result of what he derisively referred to as the “sacred First Amendment”, and if, to enjoy all this, all we had to put up with was Madonna and a couple of Kalvin Klein commercials, I thought we got a good deal.October 25, 2013 11:43 am at 11:43 am #986026
Charlie, While it is true that no religious test is required for the Presidency or any other national office and that, in theory a Wikken or a Zoroastrian could be President, I don’t see how you apply that to the current Office holder. President Obama claims to be a Christian and a Protestant to boot. He has been accused of being a secret Moslem. I am not aware that either of those two persuasions are polytheistic.October 25, 2013 11:49 am at 11:49 am #986027
Oh, sorry Charlie, my reading comprehension must have slipped. You were referring to Mr. Romney, not President Obama. Mormons are, indeed, polytheists.October 25, 2013 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #986028
This thread is making me sick! Without mentioning names, I just want to point out that this website is called theYESHIVAworld. Not the antireligousworld. With this information in mind, I think some people should reevaluate whether they belong on this website or not.October 25, 2013 7:12 pm at 7:12 pm #986029
Moi, I have not seen one anti-religious post on this thread. The question was why are we (Jews) not protesting the NJ law allowing SSM. Many answers were given and opinions expressed. If you find rational discussion upsetting, perhaps you should re-evaluate whether you belong on this blog or not.October 25, 2013 7:50 pm at 7:50 pm #986030
Redleg: The fact that Protestants aren’t polytheists is a myth. Unitarians don’t believe in the trinity. According to almost everyone (basically except the Rema), even Protestants are Ovdei Avodah Zarah.
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