Which?

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  • #618574

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Which professionals’ titles get changed because of their profession, and which don’t, and why?

    [Dr., Rabbi, Professor, King, etc. versus lawyers, managers, screwdriver manufacturers, etc.]

    #1188833

    Meno
    Participant

    In regards to Dr., Rabbi, and King, their titles don’t change because of their professions, it changes because of their degree/rabbinic ordainment/whatever makes someone a king.

    With professor, I’m not sure that’s considered a title any more than screwdriver manufacturer.

    #1188834

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Women can be called Rebbetzin just because they deserve it without having to have a specific profession or degree.

    I think men can be called Rabbi without semicha. I call most men I know Rabbi, and I don’t think most of them have Semicaha.

    #1188835

    Joseph
    Participant

    Cook and Baker.

    #1188836

    Joseph
    Participant

    President and Vice President (of a corporation or a country.)

    Chairman.

    #1188837

    flatbusher
    Member

    Interestingly, Associated Press has in its style book that on second references members of the clergy are referred to as Mr. (or Ms. if that happens to be the case.)

    #1188838

    Joseph
    Participant

    Officer (police, etc.)

    Sergeant, Lieutenant, etc. of a police force or military. General.

    #1188839

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Cook and Baker.”

    Huh?

    #1188840

    Joseph
    Participant

    “The Cook”, “The Baker”. 😉

    #1188841

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Well then you also have “The Janitor” and “The taxi driver” and “The bus driver” and “The Doctor”

    #1188842

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    When I lived in Lakewood, whenever I worked with men, they called me “Rebbetzin” since they didn’t want to call me by my first name.

    I found that pretty cool.

    Once, someone greeted me by saying, “How is the Rebbetzin?” It took me a good five minutes to figure out what he was talking about!

    #1188843

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Little – as in Little Froggie

    #1188844

    Joseph
    Participant

    lilmod, there is an inyan among many frum families where a husband will not call his wife by her name when non-family are present.

    #1188845

    Hashemisreading
    Participant

    a Tinkler a Tailor

    #1188846

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “lilmod, there is an inyan among many frum families where a husband will not call his wife by her name when non-family are present.”

    I think third person is pretty unusual though. It was the first time I ever remember someone speaking to me in third person.

    #1188847

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Joseph: What do they call each other then?

    Ishti ve Ba’ali? or My husband and My Wife?

    Mr. _____ and Mrs. ______ ?

    Meno: Professor is a huge title in academia. Typically that comes with tenure. College “professors” often begin as Instructors (or not even that if they are adjuncts). Then if they’re blessed they can move on to higher titles such as Assistant Professor before Professor.

    Many “professors” (lowercase p intentional) have doctorates. Some have their highest level of education as master’s. Either way, not every Dr. professor becomes an actual, Professor of _______.

    So IMHO Professor wins out; yet I called some Professors by their Professor title and others by Dr.

    scared driver delight: Here is the rule of thumb for this kind of thing: Even if someone is a Professor, Dr., King, and Rabbi, Pizza Delivery Driver always supersedes any other title.

    #1188848

    Joseph
    Participant

    lightbrite: “herr nur”.

    #1188849

    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    Thanks, but you didn’t really answer the question.

    #1188850

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    what does “herr nur” mean?

    They say “my wife” or “my husband”.

    #1188851

    Joseph
    Participant

    Herr Nur (Yiddish) basically translates to “Listen Up”. It avoids any semblance of calling one’s spouse in public in any affectionate manner.

    #1188852

    yehudayona
    Participant

    So “herr nur” is basically “hey you.” I don’t think my wife would like me to call her “hey you” when we’re with non-family.

    LUL, what if they want their spouse’s attention? “My wife, please pass the salt?”

    #1188853

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    That sounds rude. I like Rebbetzin better. Most people I know call their wives by their first names, but if they didn’t they would say Rebbetzin not “listen up”.

    #1188854

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    YY- I didn’t realize that we were talking about a situation in which the husband is actually speaking to his wife. I thought that we were talking about a situation in which the husband is speaking to someone else ABOUT his wife.

    I used to have a friend whose husband would always refer to his wife as “my wife” when he was speaking to me. Personally, I didn’t like it. I felt that it made sense if he was speaking to another guy that he might feel like it’s inappropriate to use his wife’s name. But if he is speaking to a female, I davka felt like it was inappropriate to say “my wife”.

    #1188855

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    The issue that I’ve been struggling with for years is what to call my friends’ husbands. I used to deal with it by not calling them anything, and just trying to get their attention. But that can be awkward and difficult. So I finally started calling them “Rabbi” (by itself, w/o a last name.)

    #1188856

    Joseph
    Participant

    So you’re standing opposed to an old Minhag tznius amongst Yidden?

    #1188857

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Sorry, I had no idea this was an old Minhag tznius amongst Yidden! I can only think of one person I know who does this and he is davka from a very modern background.

    To me, it davka felt less tznius, although I realized his point was to be more tznius.

    Is it really an old minhag?

    #1188858

    Joseph
    Participant

    Yes.

    #1188859

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    LuL: Yes, I heard about this “minhag” too

    About your quandary (why would you be speaking to a friend’s husband?) I think him referring to his wife a “my wife” sets her apart from you, in a subtle way. We wish to remain an Am Kadosh, and we take steps necessary to be ?????? ?????? in any way. This is one way, setting a “boundary” through speech. So even when you must speak to a man, his wife is not “Soshie” but “My Wife”. That sets them apart. So much more so when he’s speaking about her (c”v no lashon hara) to another man.

    How you address another man? I guess your method works. I know that sometimes I’m addressed as third person when in the presence of a bunch of girls/women, as a sign of tznius. It rubs me so bad, to me it’s so untznius. (“Would Little Froggie please come over”) Just say “you” – “could you come here?” So plain and simple. Nothing to it!!!

    #1188860

    Joseph
    Participant

    LF, is there a reason you put “minhag” in quotation marks (i.e. as what is sometimes referred to as scare quotes, if you disagree with its description) or you simply meant something else?

    #1188861

    yehudayona
    Participant

    LF, I don’t want to speak for LUL, but an obvious reason for a woman to talk to somebody else’s husband is to make a polite request (pass the salt, don’t park in the driveway, etc.)

    #1188862

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    LF- he was talking to me. That’s why I thought it didn’t make sense. When he speaks to another man, it makes sense to say “my wife” in order to create a boundary between his wife and the other man.

    But when he is speaking to another girl, adraba, the distance is supposed to be between him and her and not between him and his wife. So I felt like it was creating the opposite of the intended effect. L’maaseh, I don’t think it was a big deal since I understood what his intention was in saying “my wife”, but I just personally thought it would have been MORE tznius for him to refer to his wife by her first name when speaking to another girl. Maybe when he spoke to me, he shouldn’t have used my name. Or better yet, maybe he shouldn’t have spoken to me at all. But I thought this way was a bit funny and self-defeating.

    #1188863

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    scared driver delight: Titles cater to the current profession.

    My former political science professor has both a PhD and JD. He is not teaching or practicing law in our classroom. Thus, he goes by Dr.______ to fit his profession.

    Titles also change when one’s title is promoted. A JD who goes back to get a master’s of laws then becomes a LLM. Someone can also go from a master’s in something to a PhD or MD.

    When someone has multiple titles that are current used for one’s profession, one can combine them.

    *****Think of the case where a psychologist has multiple titles following his or her name, all which are relevant to his or her profession, such as Dr. Psychologist Therapist, PSY.D, P.A.

    *****And Dr. Medical Doctor Surgeon, MD FACS.

    If either of these doctors were also rabbis, then adding the title would typically only occur if their job is using his or her rabbinical specialty.

    If a pediatrician is also a mohel, then Dr. Pediatrician, MD, CM*

    *Certified Mohel by the Orthodox Rabbinical School of Mohels (I made this school up to illustrate the point).

    #1188864

    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Why I put the word “minhag” in quotes? I’m referring to the “minhag” of calling one’s wife “Her na”. I don’t think it’s classifies as a minhag. And I don’t think it should be used in all circumstances, by all people. Some would cringe at hearing themselves addressed so. Others maybe wouldn’t mind. Why would anyone needlessly cause pain, discomfort to his own wife?

    #1188865

    Geordie613
    Participant

    Back to the original fascinating question.

    There are a few cultural differences here. For example, In the US, President is a title, e.g. President Bush, President Obama. And they keep their title even after their presidency is over. (So the Clinton’s could possibly be, instead of Mr and Mrs, President & President Clinton). In the UK, Prime Minister is a position. The proper title is The Right Honourable (Rt Hon David Cameron, or Rt Hon Theresa May)(Right Honourable is actually a title conferred on members of the Privy Council, but that’s another discussion). At the end of their premiership, they retain the Rt Hon, and may be referred to as former Prime Minister. I notice that Mrs Clinton is referred to as Secretary Clinton, which would not happen in the UK.

    In the Jewish world, as far as I am aware, we in the UK have a unique thing in that a dayan on a beis din gets the Dayan as a title, e.g. Dayan Dunner, as opposed to, let’s say, Rabbi Braunstein who is known as Rabbi. So, when referring to the Chazon Yechezkel, a Briton would say Dayan Abramsky, whereas anyone else would call him Rav Abramsky. The Minchas Yitzchok is known here as Dayan Weiss, but in Eretz Yisroel, as “Harav Weiss der gaavad, (nein, nisht der heintiger, der alter vos hot geshriben Minchas Yitzchok)”.

    #1188866

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Geordie613 you said, “There are a few cultural differences here. For example, In the US, President is a title, e.g. President Bush, President Obama. And they keep their title even after their presidency is over.”

    I haven’t heard of a non-current president being referred to as President _________ today. In the US, don’t they say Former President Bush now, and will say Former President Obama. OR to reference an earlier time in history, sometimes a former president has his number in the title, such as Twenty-sixth President Theodore Roosevelt.

    Btw, the whole Dayan titles in the UK is so interesting. I never knew that; thank you!

    #1188867

    Geordie613
    Participant

    lightbrite,

    All U.S. presidents retain their title for life *as a courtesy*, so all former presidents are referred to as Mr. President or President <last name>.

    However, after a bit of ‘googling’ around, I see there is some difference of opinion on the matter, regarding their *official* title. This is especially relevant now, as a former president may become the spouse of a president.

    Another interesting piece regarding multiple titles, is concerning the former Chief Rabbi Jakobovits zt”l. He was a Rabbi, a Knight and then a Baron and a member of the Privy Council. so his full title was: Rabbi, The Right Honourable, The Lord Jakobovits, Chief Rabbi of the United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth. To quote from the London Gazette in 1981 “The QUEEN was pleased on Wednesday, 22nd July 1981, at Buckingham Palace, to confer the Honour of Knighthood upon the undermentioned:…Rabbi Sir Immanuel JAKOBOVITS…”.

    #1188868

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Thanks Geordie613 🙂

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