Which Heimishe Hechsherim do you trust?
- This topic has 59 replies, 25 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 4 months ago by Joseph.
January 5, 2019 11:48 pm at 11:48 pm #1657503HaimyParticipant
Have you researched the different heimishe kashrus organizations & decided on which can be trusted?January 6, 2019 1:55 am at 1:55 am #1657535
Central Rabbinical Congress – (CRC) – Hisachsus HaRabbonimJanuary 6, 2019 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1657541yisroellazearParticipant
8I have worked in kashrus for over 30 years, under many Hechsherim. OU, Chof K, Johannesburg Bais Din, Vaad of the 5 Towns, Kehilah Kosher. Rule One: A hechsher is only as good as it’s mashgichim. As the owner of Empire Poultry told me 30 years ago, “If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys”. Before you look at the lenth of the Rav HaMachshi’s beard or payos, look at his mashgichim’s pay. LOW PAY EQUALS LOW QUALITY MASHGICHIM
Some hechsherim are good about this (Chof-K may be the best) others, R edited would make me wait at least 3 months after I supervised a factory production. R edited did not know how to check for t’loim, and was unconcerned when my I was not paid on time and my hourly pay rate was cut by my employers from 14 to 11 dollars per hour. I ask you, what kind of a person would work for this pay? Probably not someone you would trust in your own home.
I retired 5 years ago, and now rarely eat out anywhere, and only after research in both the Yorah Deah of the Rav HaMachsir, but his Choshen Mishpat as well. Let the buyer bewhare.January 6, 2019 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1657734yitzchokmParticipant
If this isn’t LH, MSR I’m not sure what is.
Thank you, my error -29January 6, 2019 12:22 pm at 12:22 pm #1657740aaymParticipant
Yisroellazear you say you were a Mashgiach worried about Yoreh Deah and Choshen Mishpat. What about the laws of Loshon Hora? Why aren’t those laws important? You could have made the same point about pay without mentioning the names of a Rav HaMachshir. Also, although I hear your point, you make your whole statement suspect by ranking out a Rab Hamacshir for your hurt I’m waiting for pay. (Don’t get me wrong they should have paid you right away, but IbthinI think you get my point).January 6, 2019 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1657723
Trust in any hechsher in China is out the windowJanuary 7, 2019 8:22 am at 8:22 am #1658133
If hymish means that the mashgiach blybt in deer hym then don’t trust it.January 7, 2019 10:01 am at 10:01 am #1658166HaimyParticipant
Joseph says he trusts the CRC. Why do you trust them? Did you research their policies & mashgichim? Please explain what your trust is based on so that we can be more educated in kashrus.January 7, 2019 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1658199
Yes and Yes.January 7, 2019 10:53 am at 10:53 am #1658208funnyboneParticipant
How about non heimishe hecsheirim? Do peop l e trust them?January 7, 2019 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1658247cherrybimParticipant
All American heimish hechsheirim depend and rely on the OU hechsheirim for their products.
Therefore, I would only rely on the non-heimish hechsheirim, i.e., OU; OK; Star K.January 7, 2019 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1658289funnyboneParticipant
Cherrybim: I would assume that heimishe hashgachos research the mashgichim when they trust ou.January 7, 2019 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1658296zahavasdadParticipant
I only trust the $K
Its the best Hechsher money can buyJanuary 7, 2019 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #1658326
“All American heimish hechsheirim depend and rely on the OU hechsheirim for their products.
Therefore, I would only rely on the non-heimish hechsheirim, ”
That logic doesnt follow at all.
different mashgiichim are different as freddy pointed out
But more importantly different products have different standards for example
Due to potato chips have to be bishul yisroel? The OU says no others say yes. All agree that the food coloring/preservatives contained therein are not oleh al shulchan melachim and do not require bishul yisreoel.
so although a Heimish hashgacha will accept the OU’s food coloring and allow it to be incorporated into their product that doesnt automatically mean the finished product is acceptable to allJanuary 7, 2019 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1658314
Central Rabbinical Congress – (CRC) – Hisachsus HaRabbonim
What questions did u ask the mashgichim to determine thier qualifications . Also
How many public recalls did the CRC have since it’s inception?January 7, 2019 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1658356
There is lots of Ka$h to be made in Ka$hrus.January 7, 2019 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #1658354Yserbius123Participant
I trust them all unless I’m given a good reason not to. As far as I can tell, most mashkichim end up supervising under various different haskachos. Like how Blooms and Liebers slap a label on an OU bag of Twizzlers.January 7, 2019 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #1658364Reb EliezerParticipant
As a joke, there was a shochet/katzev/rav who was very much machmir considering everything tref. They said to him you are a machmir like a dog who wants to make everything tref in order that he should get everything, as the Torah commands to throw tref to the dogs.January 7, 2019 3:14 pm at 3:14 pm #1658454
The Blooms and Liebers Twizzlers has full time masgichim watching its full run.January 7, 2019 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1658470CTRebbeParticipant
It is true that certain Heimishe hechsherim might have slightly different standards that may or may not affect the kashrus of the food they supervise (Ex: does a production of twizzlers need a mashgiach temidi?) The other factors of the quality of a hechsher are much more important. For example
1. The level of Yiras shomayim of the mashgiach
2. The scientific knowledge of the particular industry that he is supervising
3. Command of the English language (in English speaking countries) and basic wordly knowledge
The work ethic of the mashgiach i.e. does he show up to a production on time to witness the most important parts of hashgacha (relates to number 1)
4. The report of the mashgiach with the workers and owners
5. Knowledge of halacha and the kashrus industry in general
In my limited knowledge of the kashrus business, I am not so confident that the Hechsherim with little “Yiddishe Oisios” are stronger in these areas than the national “less Heimishe” HechsherimJanuary 7, 2019 4:12 pm at 4:12 pm #1658477HeargodParticipant
Only my mother and wifeJanuary 7, 2019 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1658524
1. The level of Yiras shomayim of the mashgiach
Please explain how a human being can know the level of ones yiras shamayim.
Even the man from the Monsey chicken scandel didn’t know his own level so certainly others can’t know.
EditedJanuary 7, 2019 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1658546
Joseph, if the Bloom Twizzlers have OU’s, why would they need their own full time mashgichim?January 7, 2019 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #1658568
The twizzlers went to the mikva before packaging.January 7, 2019 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1658570chaimcParticipant
Suggestion to Shul Candymen
Before buying candies from China to give
to your children and grandchildren
as well as the rest of the Shul.
Please consider buying candies made
in Canada , Europe or Isreal.
China is well known for using lead and other
harmful chemicals in their food products.
Just google Chinese baby formula and
50,000 Chinese kids in the hospital.
Think about it
Its a few dollars more but probably a
good way to goJanuary 7, 2019 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #1658579
AJ: To insure that Twizzler doesn’t cheat when the OU mashgiach isn’t there.January 7, 2019 11:15 pm at 11:15 pm #1658600Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
To the OP:
As we’ve said on the CR before in regards to national hechsherim: internet forums are not bound by libel restrictions that would keep us from openly discussing which hechsherim are “bad.” Unlike the CRC, we don’t have a publish a massive list of “good” hechshers and leave everyone to do the math when we all know people just want to know which ones are bad.
My point is, for efficiency’s sake, why not invert the question. Which hachshers in this variety do people not like?January 8, 2019 10:22 am at 10:22 am #1658770
Joseph, are you simply guessing and making things up? As per Twizzlers website, Twizzlers is also advertised as a vegan product ( no meat or dairy products or components) so, what cheating are they afraid of.January 8, 2019 12:43 pm at 12:43 pm #1658839
AJ: So why any hechsher at all is needed for Twizzlers, per your argument? Just eat it without any hechsher altogether, per your position.
Twizzlers advertises vegan, so you can assume it never comes into any contact with any utensils or machinery that contacted dairy, meat or other non-kosher food. No supervision whatsoever needed.
They advertise vegan.January 8, 2019 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #1658880
Joseph, they have supervision, the OU. Do you have proof that the OU can”t be trusted? Has Bloom told you that’s why they are there or are you making up stories again.January 8, 2019 1:27 pm at 1:27 pm #1658893
I said nothing of the sort. I simply explained that there’s a higher level of full time supervision. OU doesn’t supervise full time.
Case closed.January 8, 2019 2:47 pm at 2:47 pm #1658934
How do you know this ? Just because you say it doesn’t make it true.January 8, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1658951Yserbius123Participant
The “better supervision” for a Blooms label on Hershey candy is a myth. All they do is pay for a run of the candy and make sure that the mashkiach’s process is one that they are comfortable with. Most of the time the mashkiach doesn’t even know that he’s watching for a heimishe hechsher instead of OU or OK.January 8, 2019 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1658948
How do we know you’re Jewish? Your claiming so doesn’t make it so.January 8, 2019 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1658967
Yserbius, that is not true. Most of the time there is no OU mashgiach at production time. If there is one, the heimishe hechsher doesn’t automatically rely on him, it depends on who he is. If he is someone they feel comfortable with, then yes, they’ll just rely on his being there and decide they don’t need to do anything more. But if he isn’t someone they trust so much, then they’ll send their own person.
I do know one person who was supervising for the OU when a heimishe rov walked in, took one look at him, and said “if you’re the mashgiach here then I’m sure everything is good”, and walked straight out. He thought this meant the rov was not doing anything to give his hechsher. I pointed out that he had done all he needed; he didn’t just rely on the OU, he went out there and saw who was in charge, and that is very valuable information for those who rely on his hechsher.January 8, 2019 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #1658962
anoymous Jew, everyone knows the OU — like all the other mainstream hechsherim — does not supervise products full time. This is not a secret, and the OU openly acknowledges it. The mashgiach visits every two months and does a thorough audit, concentrating not so much on what he can see on a quick walk through the facility as on a careful inspection of the records, and on this basis the product can advertise itself as kosher. Some people might not like that, for whatever reason, and want an actual mashgiach there while the product is being made.January 8, 2019 3:40 pm at 3:40 pm #1658979
I was once at a factory which had three hechsherim for its various products. The non-Jewish quality control manager was asked what differences he observed between the three and he answered: the only difference I can see is that Agency A visits every two months, Agency B visits every three months, and in the seven years I’ve been here I’ve never seen anyone from Agency C.January 8, 2019 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1659099Eli51Participant
Even with the best hechsheirim it matters who the mashgiach temidi is. For example if an establishment does something or bring something unauthorized into the store will he call the Vaad or just tell the establishment to remove the item & won’t sanything because is scared of losing his job. A good mashgiach will call the Vaad even if it mean losing his job.January 9, 2019 10:48 am at 10:48 am #1659400
Joseph is correct on this
Anon you said “Do you have proof that the OU can”t be trusted? ” I dont see where Joseph said this. In fact the reverse is true, as the “hemisish hashgacha” DOES rely on the OU. It depends for what.
Even if a Twizzler run is certified by a mashgiach temidi it has ingredients that werent.
By definition when relying on a hechsher you accept certain piskei halacha that you (or your Rav wouldnt hold of) A famous example is OU tuna fish which is not good according to R’ Moshe (who requires each fish to be inspected for simanim) Others argue and thats fine. But by accepting the OU blanketly you are accepting their pesakim. With bishul akum the OU is quicker to label things “aino oleh al shulchan melachim” with Grape flavor there are kulos.
Again and I cant stress this enough, I rely on the OU and in no way is this a criticism. And nobody is saying they cant be trusted, this isnt about lack of trust. Their poskim hold you dont have to check each individual tuna fish, other poskim argue. .
Of course there are probably some chumros the OU has over smaller “heimish hashgachos”January 9, 2019 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1659412
* I didn’t mean “that you (or your Rav wouldnt hold of) ”
should read “…MAY not hold of”January 9, 2019 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1659430
To summarize. when you rely on a hechsher, you are relying on their standards AND their ability to enforce those standards.January 9, 2019 12:54 pm at 12:54 pm #1659437jdbParticipant
A chashuve Rov once told a friend of mine that a car is to get you from Point A to Point B.
– You can hold by a basic, acceptable level of kashrus, and you have a solid, dependable car.
— You can hold by a strong level of kashrus, like the community Vaad, and you have a really good car.
— Some are exceptional and want only the highest quality. They want the Lexus (in this Rav’s terms). There is no reason to look down on someone driving a Ford or an Infinity. But there is something special about a Lexus.
As for what is basic and what is exceptional, that’s for you and your Rav to define. Personally, knowing many rabbanim at leading kashrus organizations, having seen in person, the operational expertise of these organizations, and speaking my rabbanim, I prefer centralized community kashrus organizations for suburban communities, and national organizations for industrial products.
In local communities, the mashgichim visit very often, know the owners, the suppliers etc. When in cities or dealing with industrial food, I prefer the major national hashgachas. They have a level of professionalism and knowledge that is unmatched. If you want to add an extra chumra or standard above them, get products with both the major national names and the heimishe names. This way you know the technical details were covered by those that truly understand the science and machinery, and the extra standards were added by the heimishe team.
But to quote Rav Nebenshal who once saw a pizza store in Yerushalayim with a Bdatz but not a Rabbanut (which is illegal), it may be mehadrin, but there’s no telling if it’s kosher.January 10, 2019 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1660106GadolhadorahParticipant
After reading 40 posts, I get the feeling that you have a bunch of blind men describing the elephant that hone has ever “seen”. There seems to be no clear and explicit definition of what is meant by a “heimeshe hashgacha” or what metrics of “trust” one is referencing There were some who believe that only a top of the line chassideshe hashgacha can be trusted until there were a few isolated allegations of incidents where the mashgichim knowingly or unknowingly allowed treifus to be sold in establishments under their supervision.January 10, 2019 10:17 am at 10:17 am #1660191Neville ChaimBerlinParticipant
“There seems to be no clear and explicit definition of what is meant by a “heimeshe hashgacha””
I don’t know what’s giving people that idea. Some people don’t fully trust the mainstream, MO hechsherim like the OU. This doesn’t mean they wholesale boycott the OU like we all do with triangle-k, they just want an extra label from a chareidi organization slapped on certain products in order to signal that that particular product can be trusted. Sometimes it might imply extra supervision for that particular supplier, sometimes I imagine it’s just a label to say “it’s okay to hold by the OU’s supervision on this specific product.”
If you go to a grocery store in NYC, it’s very clear what people mean by “heimish hechshers.” To your credit, I think if I had never been to a grocery store in NYC, I would have no idea what people were talking about either.January 10, 2019 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1660184
Ubiquitin and joseph
Joseph said Bloom requires full time mashgichim to prevent cheating when OU mashgichim aren’t around. To me, that says they don’t trust how the OU supervises.
Joseph, how big is the Neblitz hashgacha? How many mashgichim do they employ? Where is the Twizzler plant located? Again, this is a vegan product so what is Bloom afraid of that they can afford full time mashgichim? You mentioned possible using utensils that might have come into contact with meat,milk or trief. In other words, you don’t trust the OU. When a utensil needs replacement, what does Bloom do to assure kashrus?
Does Bloom mandate full time mashgichim at every plant of every product they supervise? If so, how do they afford it?January 10, 2019 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1660212YeshivishrockstarParticipant
I only eat Triangle-K and Tablet K. Everything else is treif.January 10, 2019 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1660254YeshivishrockstarParticipant
Also Cup-K.January 10, 2019 11:22 am at 11:22 am #1660315cherrybimParticipant
It also depends on your priorities in Kashrus; and there are conflicting types of hashgachos.
For instance, some food items are Yoshon but not Cholov Yisroel or Pas Yisroel.
While other food items are Cholov Yisroel or Pas Yisroel but not Yoshon.
Some foods are Glatt, but not as reliable as the non-Glatt alternative.
Other hashgachos rely on the oven light for Pas Yisroel or a timed ignition while some want a live person to light the fire. Some will rely on a camera to act as a mashgiach while others want a live person.
M’ikor hadin, based on percentages, reading the ingredient content on the wrapper or box is good enough. I heard this from a Torah giant many years ago.
I miss the good times when that’s all we had to do.January 10, 2019 11:30 am at 11:30 am #1660325
A tzadik like you should be fasting every day.January 10, 2019 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1660370
” to prevent cheating when OU mashgichim aren’t around. To me, that says they don’t trust how the OU supervises.”
I dont see where Joseph said that. I searched the thread, you said cheating not him.
If I tell you I require a mashgiach to be yotzeh venichnas for a potato chip run but to be there full time at a butcher. Does that mean don’t trust HIM to just check in on the butcher once in a while.
Different products require different standards.
Different consumers have different standards.
The “heimish hahgacha” trusts the OU to do their inspections. They just feel that there should be more inspections .
As APY put is so well “To summarize. when you rely on a hechsher, you are relying on their standards AND their ability to enforce those standards.”
Heimish hashgachos don’t always accept the OU’s standards (again and there are areas where the OU is MORE machmir) . They do trust them to enforce their standards (I’m sure there may be acceptions but generally speaking they trust and even rely on the OU)
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.