June 13, 2013 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #960700fkellyMember
I’m gonna say demi lovato. She has gone through so so much and she worked really hard to help herself. And I think it’s beautiful how confident she is now and that she goes on stage and openly speaks about what she went through.June 13, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #960701
Toi: I think there’s a Pashut Chiluk between praising their greatness and saying what we can learn from their good deeds. Also, the Acharonim say that the source is that it’s similar to a Matnas Chinam. This wouldn’t be Stam for no reason. Thanking for an actual service (especially since a lack of gratitude might compel others to not do similar things in a similar situation) should very much be Muttar, I wuold think.
Nisht: There were philosophical Rishonim and Geonim who held that gratitude was the first basic principle on which the world runs.June 13, 2013 10:58 pm at 10:58 pm #960702
Halacha is not driven by emotions. It is silly to think so.
Imagine the following scenerio, C’V You come home one day and discover R’L you child was a victim . You then go to your Rav and tell him what happend. he then tells you not to go to the Police and if you do, you are a moser. You then find out nothing was done.
Do you accept the Psak and do nothing
Use your “emotion” and get another Psak
I dont know who Toi will look up and I dont know what the result will be. I am sure there are some who will say one should not admire any Goy , but there are others who will say you can admire a Goy of even less a stature than a Righteous gentile and certainly a righteous gentileJune 13, 2013 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #960703
Your fantasy actually proves my point. The Rov, who cares about me, pushed aside emotions and issued a psak.
If I decided to seek another psak because of my emotions in no way makes it suddenly halachically correct. Nor does it make it correct that I sought another psak.
I know you like to bring up your red herring, but emotions can be just as much in play over monetary issues, family issues, and ????? matters.
By your flawed thought process, one would be able be ???? many issurim because of emotions. And how far is ????? from emotions. Such thoughts are signs of instability, that one is not in control of himself. The antithesis of ????.June 13, 2013 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #960704Oh Shreck!Participant
I cannot fathom the responses here. If Halacha says one one has to act in a certain way, a Halacha – practicing Jew will act accordingly. Of course there are different shittos sometimes, and sometimes the Halacha is not well known. But when faced with the information that indeed something is forbidden, how does a halacha practicing Jew let emotions (gemutlichkeit) get in the way?!? Either you’re following HaShem’s Torah, halacha, or you’re following your own (hot off the press) code of values, virtues.
For the record, HaShem who was the inventor of mankind (womankind too), effected the Torah and everything it stands for. Nothing there one cannot do. (I forgot to add, He was ???? ?????? ????, he knew all the generations to come, including our modern era, and all it’s accessories)
btw zd, my Rav says to go to police.June 14, 2013 12:00 am at 12:00 am #960705
Gratitude, as an emotion, or ???? ????, as conscious decision?
Such ???? ???? is much greater than just an emotional feeling.June 14, 2013 12:52 am at 12:52 am #960706
You have not proven that EVERY Shitta says its forbidden to honor and admire a rightous gentile. There certainly are shittos that its permitted, for less of a person that a righteous gentile.
Someone did bring up that the Rambam admired Aristotle. We can debate what the Rambam meant, but its not totally clear its “D’Orasya” that one should NEVER admire a gentile especially a righteous gentile.June 14, 2013 1:18 am at 1:18 am #960707
Nisht: They held that reciprocity was the essential backbone of social existence. Thus, doing something nice for someone who does something nice for you is a basis of humanity and religion.June 14, 2013 1:33 am at 1:33 am #960708
So it would be intellectual ???? ????, not emotional.June 15, 2013 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #960709
Sam2- i thought of that when reading his post, but i really havent got the koach.June 16, 2013 6:17 am at 6:17 am #960710
Think of all the non-Jewish thinkers who inspired Jewish thought.
The Kalam influenced Rav Saadia Gaon.
Aristotle influenced Rambam.
Friedrich von Schiller influended Rav Hirsch.
Soren Kierkegaard and Rudolf Otto influenced Rav Soloveitchik.
John Dewey influenced Rav Shlomo Wolbe.
There are quite a few others, but here are but a few examples.June 16, 2013 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #960712WIYMember
If someone takes a smart idea they like from someone else do we call it “influenced?June 17, 2013 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #960713ZachKessinMember
Right now Bill Gates inspires me, he is using his huge wealth to try to wipe out a number of diseases from the world. Threw the efforts of his foundation and those around him he has greatly reduced human suffering around the world.June 17, 2013 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #960714Git MeshigeParticipant
Why do we need to look at Gentiles to be inspired? We have countless Jewish people throughout history who should inspire us, from Odom Horishoin until today. So many. Why look outside the box?June 17, 2013 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #960715
That is the definition of being influenced. intellectually, at least. The Rambam even said that Aristotle achieved the highest level of human perfection, short of being a prophet.
The Moreh Nevuhim also indicates in several places that prophecy is not incumbent upon whether a person is Jewish or not, but depends on merits, personality, effort, refinement, and discipline.June 17, 2013 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #960717PBTMember
Neil Armstrong, for extreme humility after having been the first to walk on the moon.
Also, a girl during the 1999 Columbine High School shootings who was asked by one of the assailants, “Do you believe in G-d?”, and answered “Yes, I believe in G-d,” as her final words before being shot dead.June 17, 2013 6:40 pm at 6:40 pm #960718
Git Meshige: Adam Harishon wasn’t Jewish.
Nisht: Sometimes, though, emotional arguments are so strong that the Halachah could not be otherwise conceivable. For example, R’ Chaim Hakohen Ba’al Hatosfos’s emotional argument of “Eizeh Bayis Asher Tivnu Li” for if you would say a Kohen is Assur to be Mitamei to a Cherev Harei Hu K’challal is accepted L’ma’aseh.June 17, 2013 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #960719
k seriously. im not doing the whole kana’us thing, but people on this thread are really being over on an issur di’oraysah. what do you not get? look at the Rambam hilchos akum perek yud halachah daled. its also paskened in shualchan aruch. do you people not keep the torah??June 17, 2013 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #960720
Toi: Once again, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with being inspired by them, so long as you are not encouraging being like them in all other aspects. No one is praising them to elevate them, rather they are praising them to elevate themselves. Second of all, maybe there is room to be Meikel because they are not real Ovdei Avodah Zarah. Third, maybe everyone is Somech on the Kitzur Shulchan Aruch Bazeh.
(Yes, this is more a Limud Z’chus on this thread than a Lechatchilah. But I think it’s a fairly good Limud Z’chus.)June 18, 2013 6:00 am at 6:00 am #960721
sam2- not being ovdei az is darshinan taamei dikra. its mivuar it applies to everyone.
– the rambam says that praising them causes hisdabkus. youre right that it could be things that are a shvach bi’etzem ie praising philanthropy and not a hook shot. but its ossur.
– what does the kitzur say?June 18, 2013 1:09 pm at 1:09 pm #960722
Toi: Look in the Rishonim. I think someone (maybe a Ritva?) mentions the Avodah Zarah thing.
The Kitzur says it only applies to the 7 nations. Incredibly unclear why.June 18, 2013 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #960723
Toi do you accept the idea that some Poskim do not think this assur is D’AraysaJune 18, 2013 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #960724
Sam2- the kitzur is a machlokes rashi and tosfos uffen ort.
zdad- stopbeing thick. look up the poskim. you have an agenda and are being thick to further what you want to be true.June 18, 2013 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #960725
zdad- stopbeing thick. look up the poskim. you have an agenda and are being thick to further what you want to be true.
If you call honoring and respecting those who saved Jews (And Wallenberg saved 100,000) and Torah an “agenda” then yes I have one.
Have you even looked up several Shittos and seen MAYBE there are other opinions on this matter.
Many of you have heard this story. When the Kasner train was escaping Belsen (The one with the Satmar Rebbe on it) , It was supposed to go to Switzerland (and the safety there) . The man in charge of letting trains go through from Germany to Switzerland got a telegram not to let the train go through.
The Man telegraphed back the train had already left and was in Switzerland when it fact it hadnt arrived yet.
I dont know the name of this man nor do I know if his name is even remembered. Dont you think someone who help save over 1000 jews including the Satmar Rebbe deserves some kind of kovod and thanksJune 18, 2013 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #960726
if you start crying then ill really be convinced. check the codified books of jewish law. discussion closed.June 18, 2013 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #960727HealthParticipant
Michael Jackson inspires me.June 18, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #960728
vizeh lashon harambam- hilchos akum yud, daled:
??? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ??????. ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ??????. ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????? ?????? ?????.June 20, 2013 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #960729
Im gonna bump this for zdad.
i checked the Tur and S’A today. no heterim. sorry.June 20, 2013 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #960730
Im sure the Tur and the S”A never thought that a Non-jew like Wallenberg would deserve more respect than a Jew like MadoffJune 20, 2013 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #960731UtahMember
There is nothing wrong with being inspired by a non jew. Do we have to be totally isolated that we cant even notice what the non jews around us are going through and what they acomplish? Why shouldnt i notice when one of God’s creations overcomes a great struggle. Do you think thats what God would want? For me to say “I cant get inspired from him because he’s not jewish”. I’ll up it even further what if they are not a religious jew? can i get inspired from them? Or do we all have to be religious Jews? Wait what if that person is not from my sect, can I get inspired from them?
You see by taking your arguments one step further it just looks ridiculous. But i guess you were just raised in an elitist home that looks down on everyone else.
Personally I’m inspired by Roberto Clemente in that he was a really good person who never forgot where he came from and was always trying to help people.June 20, 2013 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #960732
You have no clue what the Tur and Shulchan Oruch say, yet you are sure what they thought?
Pretty amazing.June 20, 2013 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #960733
You have to look up all the sources including more contemporary onesJune 20, 2013 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #960734
It seems Rav Moshe did allow the honoring of Non-Jews at dinner for things they did in the past (ie Righteous Gentiles)June 20, 2013 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #960735Rav TuvParticipant
Question…Isthe Lav of Lo Sichanem for praising ovdei avodah zara or all goyim bichlal?June 20, 2013 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #960736
mz- the concensus of roiv rishonim is that it applies to everyone. to say not is to be doresh taama dikra.June 20, 2013 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #960737
zdad- ill leave it up to you, seeing as youre so convinced youll find them.June 21, 2013 4:08 am at 4:08 am #960738Burnt SteakParticipant
I agree with Utah on Roberto Clemente, inspired me by showing how far a person can go to help out people in need.
Also didn’t the gemara bring esav and domov ben nesina as examples of kibud av v’aimJune 21, 2013 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #960739sharpMember
Ok, So Raoul Wallenberg along with all the other courageous non-jewish men and women of his generation is kind of self understood for me.
So my vote goes to:
The teachers at the school in Newtown, CT.
NY Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly
They do inspire me, in different ways.June 24, 2013 7:23 am at 7:23 am #960740pinkdynamiteMember
Michael Jackson inspires me more than anyone. He had such a great heart and was so caring. I wanna follow In his footsteps and help as many people as I can. He was so famous, has tons of money and yet he remained completly humble and wanted to change the world. He’s really incredible. <33June 24, 2013 8:11 am at 8:11 am #960741
Not to speak ill of the dead, but the Melekh haPop was severely psychologically disturbed, associated with Nation of Islam elements, and left behind very emotionally disturbed kids, r”l.
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