Who has Kadima at the Amud?
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- This topic has 32 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 5 years, 6 months ago by Joseph.
November 30, 2017 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #1416489
I am the Gabbai at my local Shul in Monsey. Last week Erev Shabbos Mincha, someone had Yahrtzeit for his Father. He asked me if I could make sure he could get the Amud. I assured him that a Yahrtzeit Bo Bayom had Kadima over the gentleman who was still in Shloishim for his Mother and he would be able to daven Mincha. Not getting involved with the issue of a Chiyuv davening Mincha Erev Shabbos, which I am usually against, was I correct? Both of them were so called “Members” of our Shul.November 30, 2017 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #1416511MenoParticipant
Does this shul have a Rov?November 30, 2017 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #1416519GadolhadorahParticipant
My understanding is that the general ranking to daven for the amud when their are competing requests among “members” of the shul i as follows:
1.Person within Shiva
2.Person having Yartzeit
3.Person within Shloshim
4.Person within year of Aveilus
This presumes the competing parties both are saying kaddish for a parent (mother or father). I have heard mentioned, but have not seen a source, that for two otherwise equally ranked persons seeking to daven, a shiva or yahrtzeit for a parent takes priority over that for a sibling or child.November 30, 2017 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #1416532
See Gesher Hachayim:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=31174&st=&pgnum=297November 30, 2017 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1416538Out of townerParticipant
Shloshim comes before yahrtzeitNovember 30, 2017 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1416548slominerParticipant
If a non-member r’l lost his father a day ago and is in Shiva while a member is within the year of Aveilus, who gets Kadima?December 1, 2017 12:52 am at 12:52 am #1416631
non-member toich shivaDecember 1, 2017 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1416648slominerParticipant
So other than when both are the same status (e.g. both are shloshim or both are yahrtzeit), when does a member get Kadima over a non-member? (By non-member we presumably mean a non-regular mispallel.) Or is the only time member/non-member make a difference in Kadima is when both are of the same status?December 1, 2017 9:19 am at 9:19 am #1416735
Where was the Rav?December 1, 2017 10:04 am at 10:04 am #1416781
At the Agudah convention?December 1, 2017 11:17 am at 11:17 am #1416851
Maybe he had yahrtzeit and davened at a different shul?December 1, 2017 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1416910
“Does this shul have a Rov?” “Where was the Rav?”
He was calling the halacha hotline with a pikuach nefesh question that he didnt know how to answer.
Thus both of them werent availabe leaving only the Gedolei haposkim in the Coffee room
Is there some rule that requires someone to say ask your Rav with EVERY halachic question?
Yes we know. always ask your Rav first. (Maybe that could be a sticky)
That isnt a reason not to discuss an interesting question and be exposed to interesting relevent sources.December 2, 2017 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1416946
Sorry for the late reply. The Rav davens at one of our members house on Friday Erev Shabbos. He is also a Sfardy and tries not to get involved with Gaboyisha issues. The other Rabbonim who were there including one who is a very well know Chabad speaker had different opinions. Most thought that the Yahrzeit should have Kadima based on what most poskim besides Rav Shach say. The Neta Gavriel also seems to hold that way. I as the Gabbai felt that it made no sense for someone who has Yahrzeit once a year to wait until next year to give his Father some sort of an Aliyah. To be continued…..December 2, 2017 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1416947CTLAWYERParticipant
Some shuls have ritual committees who set rules (in consultation or subject to review by the Rav). Our shul set rules that deal with this more than 20 years ago and when we interview new candidates for the position of Rav they are provided with them.
Membership (meaning PAID up to date) has its privilege. If there are 2 men wishing to daven for the amud in the same need to say kaddish standard, the fully paid up member gets the honor. He may choose to relinquish it to a guest, but is not required to do so.
It costs money to pay utilities, insurance, salaries, etc. That doesn’t come from the money a guest might stick in the pushke, it comes from dues and annual pledges.
I know when my father’s Yahrzeit is, when I show up and there is no one in shiva or shloshim, I expect that I or my brothers will daven for the amud. There is no other male member of our shul with the same yahrzeit. My father’s memorial placque will be lit and one of us will be at the amud. Generally, my eldest brother davens Maariv and I davem Shacharis. We provide a breakfast after minyan. We leave Mincha for any member who may be in the mourning year, or a guest if there is one in need. Otherwise, we let a remaining brother daven.December 2, 2017 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1416950takahmamashParticipant
I believe (although I don’t have sources in front of me) that a person on the last day of his 11 months of Kaddish has a place on the chiyuv list as well. I know when I got to the last Arvit for my parents, another member of the minyan with a yahrzeit very graciously allowed me to daven for the amud. That was a kindness I will never forget.December 2, 2017 6:35 pm at 6:35 pm #1416974
“Is there some rule that requires someone to say ask your Rav with EVERY halachic question?”
When the question comes up in shul?December 2, 2017 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1417006
I hope people aren’t reading the CR in shul.
As far as the actual halacha, it’s a machlokes (as I recall, the Aruch Hashulchan brings both sides), so is very much dependant on minhag hamakom.December 2, 2017 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1417024
“When the question comes up in shul?”
When this was brought up in the CR a week later
Reread the OPDecember 2, 2017 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #1417029
When the question comes up in shul?
I don’t understand your premise. Why can’t shailos which come up in shul be discussed on the CR?December 2, 2017 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1417041
DY and Ubi: Agreed that this was brought to the CR. however, since the shailoh came up in shul, it can be asked why did the gabbai not ask the rov.December 2, 2017 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1417066
it can be asked why did the gabbai not ask the rov.
That’s not what I was addressing.December 2, 2017 11:21 pm at 11:21 pm #1417073GadolhadorahParticipant
“[the Rav] is also a Sfardy and tries not to get involved with Gaboyisha issues”…
Are Sephardeshe rabbonim unwilling to opine on matters of halacha or the minhagim of their shul?? What is a “gaboyisah issues”?December 3, 2017 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1417112Out of townerParticipant
The last day of 11 months is special as the avel traditionally relinquishes the zechus for the 12th month as a sign of kibud av v’em. He does this as a sign of respect for his parents. Mishpat reshaim is 12 months and if one says for 12 months one is kind of insinuating that the parents is undergoing mishpat reshaim. Some sephardim take off the first week of the 12th month to show respect for this concern, and then resume for the balance of the month. Either way, the rest of the aveilim then show hakaras hatov to the avel for ceding the amud for the month so they give him the day. This gives him priority over all other 11 month avelim. Yahrtzeits and shloshims would still get priority as they gain nothing from him ceding the last month, they’re ahead of him on the pecking order anyway.December 3, 2017 12:01 pm at 12:01 pm #1417313
Thank you for all the replies. Just to clarify a few things. The shul in question as some of you might know has many different Rabbonim davening at the many different Minyanim the shul offers. The issue came up when the main Rabbi who is a Sfardy was not in Shul. 2 other Rabbonim who were present had the same thought that the Yahrtzeit has Kadima. Thankfully, I had alerted the other member earlier and he davened Mincha at our 12:30pm Mincha Minyan. The discussion started when he came into Shul and stated his opinion even offering to make a small wager on a nice expensive bottle of Bourbon.
We started delving into the many different seforim that discuss this and we see that we were both right. The one point that I would like to state is that it seems like most of the earlier Poskim who give their opinion seem to be basing it in a case where only one person says each Kaddish. Later seforim that discuss this issue seem to be of the opinion that its all based on the Minhag Hamakom. Based on most current Minhagim in Shuls in my area it seems that the majority hold that Yahrtzeit has Kadima. To me that makes the most sense simply based on the fact that it only happens once a year as opposed to Shloshim which is ongoing for that month.
The one other point that I found interesting was from The Neta Gavriel who paskins the whole question based on Membership status. He discusses many different cases that can apply and seems to state that a member come before a guest. He also places the Avel at the end of his 11 months on the bottom of the list of Kadima. But in our case he gave me one more reason to know that I made the right choice. The Yahrzeit is a neighbor who has been davening at our Erev Shabbos Minyan since its inception while the Shloishim is a member who lives in the Concord area but just started davening at this minyan since he started saying Kadish. In such a case the Neta Gavriel says that the Yahrzeit has Kadima.December 3, 2017 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1417389December 3, 2017 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1417405
Forshayer: You wrote “The one point that I would like to state is that it seems like most of the earlier Poskim who give their opinion seem to be basing it in a case where only one person says each Kaddish. ” I am not sure what you mean by “earlier poskim” when the Gesher Hachayim was written in the 1900’s and he bases kadima for the amud based on the kadima for kaddish.
The Nitei Gavriel states this outright in Hilchos Aveilus Chelek Beis Perek Nun Hey Sif Yud Beis:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=46540&st=&pgnum=404December 4, 2017 6:58 am at 6:58 am #1417615
“When this was brought up in the CR a week later
Reread the OP”
This was already addressed…however the OP inducated the question came up in shul. The logical respibse is , ask the Rav. Obviously, it wasnt a question of what do i do right now. Im a gabbai in a weekday minyan that has no Rav. My rule is KUL DIALAM GVAR, and if you want a psak, give me enough advance notice and i will call my Rav for a psak.December 4, 2017 7:05 am at 7:05 am #1417619
Please ignore all typos. Using smartphone on a miving commuter train.December 4, 2017 11:19 am at 11:19 am #1417782
Im a gabbai in a weekday minyan that has no Rav. My rule is KUL DIALAM GVAR
Why don’t you learn the halachos?December 4, 2017 12:23 pm at 12:23 pm #1417838
“Why don’t you learn the halachos?”
If you knew the members of the minyan, it wouldnt matter what halachos I know or dont know. Everyone would still know better than me 🙂
For the odd time there are those who wish a psak, I ask my rav.December 4, 2017 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1417853
“If you knew the members of the minyan, it wouldnt matter what halachos I know or dont know.”
forget them, learn it for yourself.
Thank you for highlighting precisely why questions about the Rav and suggestions to just ask a Rav are often misplaced.
These are halachos like any other, I for one have learnt from DY’s and iacrisma’s sources (thank yo u both for prviding them and thanks to the OP for prompting this discussion) .
These arent commonly learnt halachos and as I am not a gabbai, I have never faced these questions before. But we can all learn from interesting discussions.
I dont mean this a as critiscm of you per se. There is much Torah, and if this doesnt interest you and it doesnt come up, there is much else to learn.
Its the general knee jerk reaction to almost any halachic discussion that it isnt worth having since “just ask a Rav” that rubs me the wrong wayDecember 4, 2017 2:53 pm at 2:53 pm #1417877
“forget them, learn it for yourself.”
As part of my regular halacha shiur, I will, when we get there.
Suggestions/questions about a Rav are never misplaced.
For discussion puposes, by all means, discuss. My original comment to the OP about the Rav, was a natural one. A question as to what to do in shul came up, I asked where the Rav was.December 4, 2017 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #1418429
ubiquitin: I grew up in a large Young Israel where we often had these shailos come up. Unfortunately I have had to confront these issues as my father was nifter 30 years ago and at times have had to assert my kadima on his yahrtzeit to daven for the amud. In general, I will cede the amud to avoid machlokes as long as I get the amud for one of the tefilos on that day.December 4, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1418423
“As part of my regular halacha shiur, I will, when we get there.”
Thats is what I said
“Suggestions/questions about a Rav are never misplaced.”
that is where we disagree. It is misplaced when it is used to shut down a discussion. Not necessarily on this thread but this is often a kneejerk response to shut down halachic discussions.
I grant that was likely not your intent. And while I quoted you I didnt mean my response to be a direct criticism of your comment per se, I shouldbe have been clearer Im sorry.December 4, 2017 11:36 pm at 11:36 pm #1418525
this is often a kneejerk response to shut down halachic discussions
I don’t think it’s ever stopped you or me. 🙂December 5, 2017 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1418692
Not shut down. Rather, inquire why the Rav wasnt an option at a time of halachic uncertainty. If there ever was a time to ask a shayla, it is when you are not sure of the answer.December 5, 2017 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1418743JosephParticipant
What if the Rov was on a flight to Eretz Yisroel (or whatever else caused him to be unavailable.)December 5, 2017 11:37 am at 11:37 am #1418850
Forshayer: If your Rav was on a flight to E’Y, Erev Shabbos Mincha, I can understand why you didnt ask him your shayla.December 5, 2017 11:40 am at 11:40 am #1418857JosephParticipant
Erev Shabbos Mincha isn’t the only time who has Kadima at the Amud shailos come up. Nor are flights to EY the only thing that can make a Rov unavailable. Even for Erev Shabbos Mincha.
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