Who is a bigger threat in America
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- This topic has 18 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 6 months, 1 week ago by Lostspark.
November 23, 2022 12:10 am at 12:10 am #2141564LostsparkParticipant
The right or the left?
I personally thing the left is, and depending on the economy they will be in power for a good long time if not indefinitely. The right is no longer active in the secular academic worst and we will be seeing a major decline in reasonable conservative thought in the near future. The left will pass legislation banning bris, yeshivos, possibly even visible signs of religious affiliation. I know this is a long way away but it seems we are headed down this path. The new ignorant right I fear will harm us with lone wolf attacks by politically enstranged lone wolf terrorist, and quite possibly could come to power in an extreme manner if there is an economic down turn. What are your thoughts?November 23, 2022 7:46 am at 7:46 am #2141608Naftush-2Participant
Three thoughts. First, those who insist on determining which side is worse tend to get into battles with each other, giving aid and comfort to the real enemy. Let’s not. Second, my vote goes to those on the Left, mainly in academia, who’ve been developing a “scientific” antisemitism and teaching it to the young. It has more harmful potential than much of right-wing antisemitism, which centers heavily on hoary Xian tropes and promotes thuggery. Third, there are centrist and rightist Jewish academics, some frum, who could be making a bigger impact in research, media, and public life, than they are making. I sort of fall into that category, having made aliya and doing little against the ghastly developments in the “old country.”November 23, 2022 8:46 am at 8:46 am #2141686ujmParticipant
The mainstream left accepts and honors their antisemites, such as those in the black community (Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson and numerous other fully accepted black Democrats) whereas the mainstream right rejects their antisemites. Furthermore, antisemitism is very large on the left whereas it is the fringe on the right. Additionally, the violence from the left, just look at all the reports in major cities of black violence against Jews in NY, NJ, etc., far far outnumbers the rare violence from the right against Jews.November 23, 2022 8:49 am at 8:49 am #2141699akupermaParticipant
Define “right” and “left” (and remember, those terms derive from the seating in the French legislature during their revolution, which was before any Jews were allowed to vote or hold office).
If by “right” you are referring to the groups such as the self-proclaimed Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Q-ANON, their rhetoric is threatening but they are regarded as nutcases by American Conservatives, and lack any potential to be more than a nuisance.
If by “right”, following groups such as the Democrats or the secular left-wing media, you are referring to those who favor capitalism, fiscal responsibility, personal autonomy, religion, policy that regards hetereosexual reproduction as normal, etc., we have no reason to fear them, and in the eyes of the American left, we are clearly part of them. Even if a frum Jews wishes to be a “Liberal”, we can’t since we are by definition religious, pro-children, and believe that an persons have free will and are responsible for their actions.
The American “left” is probably a bigger threat. It is dominated by secular Jews, are see most of what we believe, including the existence of a creator, to be incorrect ideas that require the coercive power of the state to “correct”. Unlike American conservatives with a long tradition of opposing religious discrimination, going back to the late 18th century when America became “exceptional”, the “left” sees “Freedom from religion” as a policy goal, and since we are obviously religiously oriented, they perceive a need to “cancel” us (thus we see the Democrats in New York trying to close down yeshivos and ban Bris Milah – suggesting that frum Jews should really consider moving to a more conservative, and therefore tolerant, state).November 23, 2022 9:34 am at 9:34 am #2141711
None of them like us, end of the storyNovember 23, 2022 9:35 am at 9:35 am #2141707moishekapoiehParticipant
They are both big threats. But from the previous entries, the left has their vote.
January 6 almost destroyed our democracy.
Who led that insurection? The right.
Beware of the right.November 23, 2022 11:35 am at 11:35 am #2141768ujmParticipant
moishele: The discussion here is about threats to Jews; not to democracy. In any event, the thousands of Far-Left Antifa terrorists and BLM anarchists burning cities and killing police officers and civilians across the US over many months where and are a far greater threat than the 150 rioters in DC one day in one place a year and a half ago.November 23, 2022 1:02 pm at 1:02 pm #2141839SQUARE_ROOTParticipant
ALL people who hate Jews are dangerous, and it is difficult to know with certainty who is the most dangerous, because nobody knows the future with certainty.
However, the political Far Left [also known as the Radical Left or The Woke or The Socialists] are especially dangerous to Jews, because they dominate numerous powerful institutions, for example:
almost the entire news media, almost the entire Hollywood entertainment industry, almost all High-Tech & Social Media companies [except for Twitter, recently bought by Elon Musk], almost the entire educational system [especially colleges and universities], almost the entire Democratic Party, and many non-Orthodox synagogues and large churches and big non-profit organizations (including Amnesty International, the Rockefeller Brothers Fund, the Ford Foundation, and the New Israel Fund, Human Rights Watch, Oxfam, NGO Monitor), and many more.November 23, 2022 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #2141846moishekapoiehParticipant
ujm-ele – we almost lost our democracy – the best safety net for Jews. Do you think you’d be safe, as a Jew, in a dictatorship? I don’t think so. As for the 150 rioters, seems you must have counted them, most of us saw thousands of them. And you say it happened 1 1/2 years ago, well the leftist riots, didn’t they happen 2 or 3 years ago? And what makes you think they specifically targetted only Jews? I still shudder at the thought of the Oath Keepers and other radical white supremacists taking over our wonderful country.November 23, 2022 1:34 pm at 1:34 pm #2141851
Neither of them are Tzadikim. The results of the extreme right or the extreme left taking over are always almost the same. BUT there is no serious threat of the extreme right taking over in the US. The demographic that could or would join it is simply too small to ever take over.
Conversely the threat of the extreme left taking over the US during the next few decades is a real possibility. It is a clear and present danger r’lNovember 23, 2022 1:59 pm at 1:59 pm #2141856emes nisht shekerParticipant
Seems this topic has garnered a following of people who just look to throw out definitions that suit their agenda than any meaningful discussion… Typical of conversations in the coffee room unfortunately.
So how about try to minimize opinion and consider each group with an open mind.
A study in 2020 identified 893 terrorism incidents in the US since 1994. In that period no deaths linked to antifa were identified yet 329 murders by white extremists or other right-wing extremists were identified.
I can agree that Antifa represents an extreme left-wing view that poses a threat and can become violent but the facts don’t easily get me to equating them with right wing extremists.
Also, consider Antifa is not a hierarchal organization whereas as right-wing extremists are hierarchal. When I think of the Nazis as the model of the most dangerous grouping, hierarchy and strict organization were key elements. Weakly organized groups while they can be chaotic and cause lots of damage are not likely an existential threat.
But lets move on to BLM. Best I can tell in total about 25 deaths are related to the BLM protests, but most of the deaths were of black people and not police or white people. Given the size of the demonstrations and the few deaths compared against the hundreds of deaths noted above, suggesting BLM is a bigger threat is just odd.
So instead you have to revert to claims about how the left loves BLM or Antifa and the right is against White Supremacists… but if indeed White Supremacists are engaging in regular murder and BLM and Antifa are not how can you equate the two. Do we see the Democrats celebrating groups like the Black Hebrews which are very dangerous?
As to Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson, and others who have said antisemitic things, yes, I don’t think anyone here likes that but best I can tell at least in recent history (yes, I am aware of Al Sharpton and the Crown Heights riots and he deserves to rot in hell for his incitement) they have not said things worse than those on the right whose words you choose to shovel under the carpet… Such as MTG with her Jewish Space Lasers.
Of course, make sure you note the US is roughly 14% black versus about 60% white. The assumption that an economically disadvantaged group making up 14% of the population is better positioned to determine the future direction of this country than the 60% white majority is an astounding claim that requires much consideration. A look at the House of Reps shows maybe 15% of the members are black. In the Senate currently I think there are 3 out of 50 senators. The facts just don’t support the conclusion that black people have much power.
So go scare yourselves about the left all you want, but don’t ignore the facts in the process.November 23, 2022 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #2141895
@ens, Fact remains the Yankle Rosenbaum HYD, Yossel Nuemann HYD, [forshay], Mindy Ferencez HYD and Yossi Deutch HYD [jersey city] were all recent Jewish victims killed by black hate.November 23, 2022 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #2141906besalelParticipant
As a famous Rabbi used to say, “May Hashem save us from both Jesse [Helms] and Jesse [Jackson].” He also used to say that the Earth is round so if you keep moving to the far right or to the far left you end up meeting at the same point.November 23, 2022 5:56 pm at 5:56 pm #2141912emes nisht shekerParticipant
@common saychel – Your list of people killed is 100% correct but my comment implicitly included at least 3 out of 4 of those names. Is your point to deflect from the facts that may contravene the narrative being spun here or do you have some critical insight that I missed?November 23, 2022 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #2141923
>>>A study in 2020 identified 893 terrorism incidents in the US since 1994. In that period no deaths linked to antifa were identified yet 329 murders by white extremists or other right-wing extremists were identified.
I’m suspicious of these type of studies to begin with but anyway as liberals love to say that is a deflection. Antifa is not the only left wing group that goes around killing people, nor or Antifa the only danger presented by the left wing. Most importantly it ignores the high murder rate, crime and anarchy in places where the left control even when the murders aren’t racially or politicly motivated.
>>>So instead you have to revert to claims about how the left loves BLM or Antifa and the right is against White Supremacists
I’m not reverting to any claims . Bottom line is “defund the police” was widely adopted among the left and tolerance for the BLM remains strong. The perpetrators were mostly slap on the wrist punishments if even that.
>>>Of course, make sure you note the US is roughly 14% black versus about 60% white.
Whoa! For a liberal that is an implicit shockingly racist statement. Why the automatic assumption that the far left in the US would only be coming from the 14% black population? In fact I think the white liberal colleges are far more likely to be the breeding grounds and organizational apparatus of the far left taking power than the black community.November 23, 2022 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #2141926
>>>As a famous Rabbi used to say, “May Hashem save us from both Jesse [Helms] and Jesse [Jackson].”
There is zero comparison between the two people. Helms did not go around spewing anti-Semitic drivel like Jesse Jackson did. He was also nominally involved in helping Soviet Jews as well as being very Israel.
Like any prominent right wing figure the left accused him of being a racist but he certainly never openly espoused hatred or used us against them talk like Jackson did.November 23, 2022 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #2141924maskildoreshParticipant
I would like thank Emes nit Sheker for a thoughtful, carefully written , and well worded post. Substance , not shrill hyperbole.November 23, 2022 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #2141929
@ens, you mentioned 1 incident, Crown Hts. no mention of the other kedoshim.November 24, 2022 12:53 am at 12:53 am #2141962LostsparkParticipant
Emes, like I said lone wolf terrorist attacks are a threat from the right, I don’t think we will see it systemized at a government level unless the economy takes a steep dive or we go through some sort of existential crisis.
The left is far more dangerous in the fact they control the mainstream narrative and will have the ability to pass sweeping legislation in the near future if trends continue.
The rural uneducated votes will wane as secular education continues to indoctrinate young minds to join the cause. All serious high level secular acedemia is consolidating further left by the day, all of this will have a serious effect on future voting demographics.
I think it’s time to admit conservatives have lost the game, and this last election was proof. Attaining the house will further the problem as republicans will continuously be blamed for holding up any progress. Even though Biden has been a lackluster president much fewer people than predicted cared to send a message.
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