Who is a Jew?

Yaakov Yosef A, I thank you for sharing your accurate facts and valid logic.

Yaakov Yosef A, I thank you for speaking the truth to people who need to hear it.

May G*D always grant you health any happiness.

@yaakov-yosef-a
As somejew you know and love, I’ll respond first to your numbered points:

1. It’s not “despite knowing little or nothing”, it’s specifically because of it. One cannot be “Achicha” b’mitzvos if they don’t know enough. (there is fascinating Torahs written about if/how an infant is achicha based on this foundational point)

2. There are various levels relevant to different halachos, such as (sorry if I miss a few, this is all ad-hoc) an idolator, ben-noach, stam non-jew, tinok shenishbu, jew who joined a”z, jew who doesn’t keep majority of the (common) mitzvos, jew who doubts any of the 13 ikkarim, jew who doesn’t keep shabbos publicly, jew who regularly does multiple aveiros, jew who regularly does a single aveirah, jew who was forced to do an aveira, jew who did an aveirah to rebel against heaven, jew who did an aveira because of a personal consideration (pleasure, money, etc), jew who did an aveira because he didn’t realize what he was doing, jew who did an aveira because he misunderstood the haluche and thought it allowed. And all these (non linear, sometimes mix and matchable) categories are applied differently to different haluches such as killing then, passively letting them die, saving their lives, saving their lives while “breaking” shabbos, self-defence, yichid, mesira, tzedukeh, dinei mamunos, ribis, loving them, hating them , lushon hureh, motzi shem ru, airiv tachumim, shchita, hischabris, yayin nesech, chezkus kashrus, n’emunis, etc.

3. There is a red line of who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. Like any sugya, there is much beautiful Torah iyun in each part of that “red line” (what means “public”?, what are the exact terms of the ikarim?, etc) , but the red line exists whether we can identify the minutia of its precise location or not.

The living population count of those who are in “amecha” does not change the “red-line”. It might be 10; it might be 10 million.

I don’t know who if others or anyone will be “killed in preparation for the Geulah”. It’s not anything I’ve studied, unfortunately.

4. I never said anything like this. I am active here in CR specifically to help kosher people that have been lied to.

Now on to your questions:

> Do you think you yourselves are in the top 7,000 members of Klal Yisroel or whatever your numbers are?

I hope so, but can’t be sure. Chazal say one shouldn’t consider themselves a rushe. However, I am always trying to learn more and align myself to Torah.

> Do you at least get up at חצות and cry and mourn that so many einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov are so far gone, and cry and daven with copious tears that they should do Teshuva?

No.

> Or is that also Assur?
No. I daven the whole world should be full of “Daas Hashem”, and with copius tears. However, it might be assur to specifically or publicly daven for minim as it 1) imply a correction to anshei knseses hagedolah’s established tefila for their destruction, 2) goes against the Torah sources that say explicitly that they are NOT “einiklach of Avrohom Yitzchok and Yaakov” just like we don’t daven as such for their other non-Jewish eineklach (like bnei Yishmoel or Edom), 3) might be “madiach” chalila other yidden to foolishly think they are part of klal yisroel and reinforce the zionist lie that Jews are part of Am Yisroel even without Torah, thereby breaking the many halochos that dictate how kosher jews must relate to such minim.

> Or do you just not care and finished?

No, I do care. I hate the reshoyim and cry for the tinukos shenishbu like those trapped at YU and HUC and Mirkaz Hara. At might shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”.

> If you were a Hatzalah volunteer, and a non-Frum Jew was having a heart attack ר״ל, would you really and truly be מורידין ולא מעלין, or would you (at LEAST) say ספק פיקוח נפש להחמיר when you have BOTH a פלוגתא דרבוותא and a ספק במציאות? Can you NAME ANY POSEK WHATSOEVER who would Pasken to literally leave the person to die?

As the Chazon Ish says, we must judge each person individually. And, poskim have been clear that we must always be machmir on all sides when concerned for pikiach nefesh. I’m not sure what “pligsa” you are referring to.

This is all besides the fact that with a known rushe merisha, I’m pretty sure the reasons for saving their lives include “aimuh”, threats of jail as punishment (especially for emergency workers), as well as loss of future privilege by those organizations that help enable their lifesaving work.

YYA< thanks for formulating this so well.

some> who is part of “amecha” (am yisroel/klal yisroel), and those basic requirements are 1) keeping most common mitzvos, 2) believing without doubt the 13 ikarim, 3) keeping shabbos publicly. … as my stance is well documented in Chazal and poskim.

I asked and may have missed the answer: could you pls provide a reference that says tinokos shenishba are not counted in amecha. From universally accepted sources, such as MB, not from the individual poskim, however great they might be. And also, you can’t make such decisions from books only – please tell us what your ruv said about this idea.

Given the severe implications of your so well stated position, I will have to exclude you from amecha unless satisfactory answers are provided.

@SJIK – you’re statement that “At might shabbos tish, like many, we encourage our kids to eat the chulent saying “yeder bundel hargit a tziyoni”” is both shocking and sickening. Did you not ever hear about what Bruria Eshes Rv Meir said to him about “Yitamu Chata’im min haAretz” – Chata’im v’Lo Chot’im?

Even according to your (incorrect, in my view) Shita, you should be saying “yeder bundel brengt tzurik a Tziyoini in Tshuva”. To wish death on your fellow Jews? “U’lefi shehozi es atzmo min haKlal – kafar b’Ikar”.

an Israeli Yid

Somejews posts are plain abhorrent .

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@yaakov-yosef-a
the chidish of tinik shenishbu is that they are o’nes and NOT mazid if they are taught something heretical as “Truth” and didn’t have enough access to the real Truth that they would be obligated to recalibrate to.

once a certain threshold of exposure is passed, and this is where many struggle to delineate clearly, they become mazid if they don’t become ereliche yidden. I don’t know if such a “mazid” person would still be called a “tinok shenishbu” in common usage of the term. If you want to agree between use that “tinok shenishbu” should only mean while they are still “o’nes”, I think that would make the conversation easier.

Regardless, those “trapped” in the notzri or zionist churches I was referring to are those who are the “o’nes” type of tinok shenishbu.

> YYA: I heard years ago from my Rebbe זצ״ל (who was a big anti-Zionist) that there are people who say this. To put it VERY mildly, he did not like the idea and said it is horrible Chinuch… This is the first time I have ever encountered anyone who admits to actually saying such a thing to his children.

what do you mean “admit”? This is something taught to our children in the largest Satmar mosdoses (amongst others), which is – I should reiterate – the largest charedi subgroup. I find it telling that you have sedarim in Vayoel Moshe and Al HaGeilah, but you have never met someone who grew up in and is a student Satmar…

Again, if there was a private channel to communicate, I would happily learn with you.

> So, let me ask you. Where does this הנהגה come from?
I don’t know.

> Why, in the middle of your Shabbos Seuda, do you and your children need to think of Zionists and violent death, which would probably upset your Oneg Shabbos unless you are psychopathic sadists?
It’s not a violent thought, it’s more happy unicorns and flowers as we imagine the world being purified from all their Zionist filth and guns and wars and battles against yiddishkeit, and imagining the world where Hashem’s Kisei is Shulem. Kind of like Pirim, but without being shiker.

> And if you do need to wish death upon someone in order to enjoy your chulent, so why not say ‘Amaleki’?
It’s a good question. I don’t know why they changed their name from “Amaleki” to “Zionist”. Perhaps they thought it better PR to fool the Jews, but we’re one step ahead with our chulent.

Another question: What do you think about more often – Hashem, Torah, or להבדיל Zionists?
Hashem and His Torah, without a doubt.

I almost chocked on my re-heated chulent from reading this. You start valuing mods after they retire … Thanks to YYA and others who wrote nice responses. My only question remains – is there a live Rav who approved these positions or the poster simply comes up with his own interpretations (or reads these interpretations).

@yankel-berel
maybe just read SH’A YD 157. it does not say “only 3 hamurot(sic) are yehareig ve al yaavor”

yankel, I did not (yet) learn vayoel moshe, but when under shmad, we don’t change even minor things, right? Just playing shvuos advocate.

YYA: There’s a clear shitta (which I believe is the majority shitta) that **any** exposure to frum Yidden makes a non-frum Jew NOT a tinok shenishba. (Despite all your taainos against this shitta.)

@yaakov-yosef-a
> Did you think about that possibility?
I’m not sure what you are inserting into my words. At this point, I don’t even know what we are arguing about. You seem to be very confused about a subject that is causing you to spin your wheels in exasperation.

The category of “tinik shenishbu” is NOT a category of “in” or “out” of “amecha”, rather it is its own sugy the discusses whether o’nes actions are ones or not. A person can be otherwise “charedi” and be a “tinik shenishbu” (read o’nes) vis-a-vis any given haluche if they were raised with that mistake from their parents.

1) So, you can have a yid growing up in the jungles of the Amazon amongst mamash goyim, and he would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all his aveiras (with caveats that would distract from this conversation). He would also NOT be part of “amecha” in that he is not “achicha b’Torah i’mitzvos”. His status as “tinik shenishbu” would simply mean that he is not punished for the aveiras that are not his fault, like any other o’nes.

2) Alternatively, you can have a “Modern Orthodox” yid growing up in LA who keeps kosher and shabbos, hangs out in mixed company, shakes womens hands and hugs them casually, has an unfiltered smartphone, and marries a lady with a long lace-shaitel and send his kids to college (rachmunu latzlan on all of this). He would certainly agree to ALL of the 13 ikarim and keeps all the haluches as taught to him by his “conservative-friendly rabbi (sic)”. He is simply not aware that his “rabbi” is crooked in telling him all the above is okay. This person would be a “tinik shenishbu” vis-a-vis all those aveiras and also be “amecha” in that he believes all the ikarim, keeps shabbos, and keeps most mitzvas, and doesn’t do any aveiras “l’hachis”.

3) Take the above person, and instead of him believe all the 13 ikarim, he was instead taught as a child to reject the Written Torah (chalilah!) as being perfect letter for letter, and no one ever taught him different. Now, he would seemingly be a “tinik shenishbu” who is NOT part of “amecha”.

4) Take the above person, and have his local charedi rabbi inform him about the accuracy of our Torah as a fundamental of Judaism, and now if he is mekabel, he becomes part of “amecha” and otherwise (chalila) he would stay not part of “amecha” and perhaps lose the excuse of o’nes.

> YYA: Do you understand that the moment you even theoretically accept the possibility that ‘Klal Yisroel’ numbers only 7,000 people you forfeit any right to make an ‘argument from numbers’?
> YYA: I have met many people who are either Satmar Chassidim or were students of Satmar or Satmar-oriented mosdos, but I have never heard any of them הלכה למעשה write off 99.95% of people born to Jewish mothers as literally being Goyim. I find that telling. I also find it telling that you seem to struggle with marei mekomos from the seforim of your ‘own’ Chassidus.

This is exactly the argument I was making previously. Religious Jews CANNOT make a numbers game. Not only is it an anti-Torah concept, it doesn’t make any sense. All “orthodox” Jews reject 99.95% of people claiming to be the true “chosen nation”, including notzrim, reform, and zionists. We ALSO, as per the clear psak of Rambam, S”A, and LITERALLY EVERY OTHER MAJOR POSEK we reject all Jews who aren’t achicah b’mitzvos as NOT part of “amecha”.

This has nothing to do with the other very important sugyas of our obligation to hate and/or mekarev anyone based on our relationship with them and the ways that they present themselves to the world.

BTW I apologize that after reading what I wrote my use of “our children” seemed to imply that I send my own children there. I try very much not to talk about myself in these threads as it is immaterial, but I do not claim to be Satmar nor do I claim to send my children to “the largest Satmar mosdoses”. I intended to phrase “our children” it that was to mean “klal yisroel’s” children, meaning it’s the largest chinuch network in the world (I didn’t check any actual stats here, just basing this off the oversieded Satmar population in the world, kain yirbi).

Regarding “haluche lemayseh”, I’m not sure what haluches you are talking about. Would ANY of them drink wine whose 99.95% touched?

> Another question I wanted to ask you: לשיטתך, what will happen to the millions of non-Frum Jews when Moshiach comes?

I have not idea what will happen when Moshiach comes beyond what is written in classic seforim. As I understand it, Moshiach will return everyone to tshiva. This will be precluded by or together with some sort of biur where the reshoyim will be destroyed. I’m not sure the timeline, only that WE will not know who is moshiach until he brings all of klal yisroel to tshiva shleima.

YYA

so why does shulhan aruch , rama or any of nosei keilim not mention that for the shavu’ot one must sacrifice one’s life ?

Am not asking on maharal himself who is not bound by shulhan aruch

am asking on those who claim that shavu’ot is yehareig veal yaavor halacha lemaaseh …

and are therefore disregarding pikuach nefesh in practice ….

why does shulhan aruch not mention this as one of the averot one is obligated

to give your life for ?
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is there another area in halacha where halacha pesuka is arrived at in such a similar manner

relying on a maharal who wrote on agada

seemingly contradicted by all poskim including shulhan aruch and nosei keilim

or is that only done in this particular sugyia ?

and on top of that in the sugya of hamura shebachamurot — pikuach nefesh ….

and not only pikuach nefesh … but mass pikuach nefesh ….

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you write that this is part of behukotai and therefore kfira and therefore included in the prohibition of saying i am not a jew ….

that is meant to explain the negation of pikuach nefesh considerations in whether to keep the IDF intact …

I cannot see why a Jew who openly proclaims he is a Jew and proclaims fealty to each and every word of the torah , including behukotai

and to the shavu’ot and only supports pikuach nefesh considerations …

why should such a person be considered like someone proclaiming his not a jew ….

why should such a person be considered like someone who does not accept the torah ….

he says it clearly … he accepts … he says clearly that it is only because of pikuach nefesh which is docheh all issurim that he is over on the shavu’ot …

is that the pashtut of the mechaber and rama to include such a person within the klal of someone denying his jewishness ???
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@yaakov-yosef-a

>Sorry for not being clear enough. The Maharal, according to the Vayoel Moshe…
I want to thank you for that explanation. Very well written and to the point.

YYA

maybe I did not explain properly

my question was not on maharal

it was on the widely held belief that SR holds that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

how does that square with SH’A YD 157 ?
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you claim that SR agrees that p/n is doche the shavu’ot ?

any discussion I had with satmar people on this topic , yielded the same result

p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

it does not sound that they all are mistaken in the shitah of the SR

just last week I asked a satmar aligned rav who used to give public shiurim on vayoel moshe

this very same question re p/n being docheh the shavu’ot according to sh’a

he said that SR held that p/n is not docheh the shavu’ot

when I asked about the pashtut of the shulhan aruch YD 157

he said that he does not know and has to be me’ayen
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besides:

Its not just an ‘omission’ in the mechaber and rama

As far as I remember they state that in all other issurim the klal of yaavor veal yehareig applies

technically the shavu’ot [if indeed applicable lehalacha as SR holds in his sefer] are included in she’ar issurim

thats the pashtut

so we do have a statement that all issurim are nidcheh mipnei p/n , including the shavu’ot ….
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What do you think ?

v32, I don’t think there is “Jew” (Yehudi) in the Torah (Chumash). It appears as a reference to all Jews (rather than someone from the tribe of Yehudah) in Megillah for Mordechai who os from Binyamin, this is where “Jew” starts signifying the whole nation due to 10 tribes disappearing and the remnants mixing up in exile.

Avraham is the first Hebrew “Ivri”, being different from others, passing a boundary/river.

Israel is mostly used as children of Yaakov as a symbol of a nation.

Not sure why it is “Eved ivri” / a Jewish slave, maybe he at the moment is not representing the nation, being a lowly slave.

I am sure there are books and books written about these.

In modern times, maskilim (secularists) tried using Hebrew/ Polish-Russian:Evrey instead of Jew/Zhid to denote national Jews v. religious. Thus, all kind of “Hebrew societies”, “hebrew schools” were created.