June 1, 2019 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1736416
Joseph. You’re absolutely right. Without the Ashkenazim, the Sephardim would be devoid of Torah. Prior to WWII they’re was no Torah in Sephardic lands. (Sarcastic).
If you learn a little more I guarantee you will change how you think. But you have to be WILLING to learn.June 2, 2019 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1736424
worship should have quotations
typoJune 2, 2019 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1736422
Go ahead . deny it. sil vouz plait
Even in the Best of communities eg Aleppo There were very few heavyweights
While they were many pious Remaining they were not Sadly capable of dealing with the changing conditions
It was With reason that in the 60s Sephardic Jews Were unfortunately being compared to the 10 lost tribes
they worship men of the spirit
Not so much tangible materialism like some of your HellenistsJune 2, 2019 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1736438
There is an excellent book that came out two years ago called “Gedolim”. It selects many gedolim of the last two centuries from the chareidi world only and gives each a chapter. It is not hagiographic, rather it places each godol in the perspective of his time and surroundings, and discusses his hashkafa in Torah and Jewish society from an objective point of view. 28 Gedolim were selected to this “Hall of Fame”. Unfortunately for most of the readership here, it’s in Hebrew.
The editors are Benjamin Brown and Nissim Leon. They freely admit that the process of selection was close to impossible and that one may easily disagree with the chosen list. A terrific and enlightening book.June 2, 2019 5:14 am at 5:14 am #1736431
Yes, only Europe had rabbis. Only Europe had Torah.
Never ever compare your Mesora which is at most a few centuries, to those of the Sephardim which is 1000+ years. Don’t ever debase their Mesora by comparing to yours.June 2, 2019 6:57 am at 6:57 am #1736447
Yabia, after the Inquisiton in 1492, Sefardic mesorah began to change radically integrating with the people where they moved to. Also since 1492 Torah leadership of Jewry was effectively led by vastly numerically greater Gedolim of the Ashkenazic world. No one is saying the Sefardic world had no Gedolim since then, of course, but overall the leadership called from the Ashkenazic world.
After the Sefardim left their countries of origin in the aftermath of WWII, they basically followed the leadership of the Ashkenazic Gedolim in Eretz Yisroel to rebuild their Torah world. Hence the Sephardim adopting the Ashkenazic form of dress (both Rabbinic and lay), going to Ashkenazic yeshivos (including most Sefardic rabbonim when they were younger), etc.June 2, 2019 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1736590
Don’t even bother, Joseph. He can say whatever he wants and we can say nothing. PC culture.
Yup. Ashkenaz pride is racism. Sphardim are abjectly superior; denying this is racism… blah blah blah. Sounds pretty familiar to anyone acquainted with the liberal media.June 2, 2019 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1736630
Joseph, there is truth to what you are saying. However, there is a dearth of knowledge about the Torah that came from Sephardic lands. Tell me if you heard of these “Gedolim”:
R’ Yehuda Ayash
R’ Shlomo Laniado
R’ Abdallah Somekh
R’ Baruch Toledano
R’ Shalom Sharabi
R’ Yitzchak Ben Walid
R’ Refael ben Shimon
R’ Shalom Messas
R’ Yosef Messas
R’ Moshe Pardo
R’ Yitzchak ben Walid
R’ David Cohen-Skali
R’ Yaakov Ben Tzur (Yaabetz)
etc etc etc etc etc etcJune 2, 2019 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1736631
NCB: Ashkenazim SHOULD be proud of their Mesora. But they should not be ignoramuses. And all Jews need to realize that Torah is Torah. you should learn from a Rav from Poland just as you should from one from Egypt. That is the enlightened way to approach Torah.June 2, 2019 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1736671
“Ashkenazim SHOULD be proud of their Mesora. But they should not be ignoramuses. And all Jews need to realize that Torah is Torah. you should learn from a Rav from Poland just as you should from one from Egypt. That is the enlightened way to approach Torah.”
That is not the approach you have taken on these forums ever, and don’t think anyone is going to believe you’ve suddenly turned over a new leaf just because you’ve been called out for what you are. You’re exploiting a social trend that mirrors modern liberalism and calling Ashkenazim “meshugas” because you you can and we can’t.June 2, 2019 2:34 pm at 2:34 pm #1736683
it’s not a new leaf. I have always maintained that. But I always maintain that A are much more susceptible to Meshugas. It’s a fact that Maran HIDA wrote about 300 years ago. The difference is that other people don’t broach the subject. I do.June 2, 2019 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1736728
The Chida noted in his travels that Tunisia of the latter 18th century was influenced by and adopted Ashkenazi methodology
it is Not a new phenomenonJune 2, 2019 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1736732
Meanwhile, for the last 500 years it has been Ashkenazim, as a result of this “meshugasim”, have been much much more successful in keeping the Torah flame burning and producing countless gedolei rabbonim and talmidei chachomim. Far far in excess of that seen outside the Ashkenazic world for the past half a millennium.
The meshugasim are working.June 2, 2019 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #1736761
Yes, a guy who is a serial poster on YWN (Joseph) and spends his time with online pilpulim is definitely the last word on who is and who is not a Gadol and who is keeping the flame burning. When I want to know who is a Gadol I will consult with Joseph.June 2, 2019 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #1736797
The Knesset Hagdola didn’t keep the flame burning? The Bet Yosef didn’t keep the flame burning? Or Hachaim didn’t keep the flame burning? HIDA didn’t keep the flame burning? Kaf Hachaim didn’t keep the flame burning? Yaabetz didn’t keep the flame burning? BIH didn’t keep the flame burning? Kiryat Chana David didn’t keep the flame burning? Kaf Hachaim Palagi didn’t keep the flame burning? Matteh Yehuda didn’t keep the flame burning? Mayim Chaim didn’t keep the flame burning? The Halachot Ketanot didn’t keep the flame burning? This is a minute list.June 2, 2019 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1736788
“When I want to know who is a Gadol I will consult with Joseph.”
And, who do you consult when you’re deciding which mesoras are OK to call meshugah? “Rabbi” Yoseph Mizrachi?
I’m not going to contend that Torah has been stronger in one mesora as Joseph is doing. But, as for this attack about using the CR forums: there’s only one person on these forums that goes around to random threads that have nothing to do with minhag and tries to turn them into some kind of immature race war, and that person is you. If you live in a glass house, don’t throw stones.June 2, 2019 10:22 pm at 10:22 pm #1736908
Haha Rabbi Mizrahi. I think we can agree on one thing.June 3, 2019 12:39 am at 12:39 am #1736923
For some of those cases,the short uncomfortable long term answer is
Pious men could be found in every nook and cranny
In some cases they are the exceptions to prove the rule
Nor should it matter. the discussion is not sectoral influence in a vacuum
It is predominance
should have been rather obvious Yabia was coming From a YU corner, under a falutin Sephardic guise .
Nom de plume notwithstandingJune 3, 2019 6:59 am at 6:59 am #1736960
Neither YU, nor Sephardic!June 3, 2019 7:54 am at 7:54 am #1736967
This is a real question. How do you measure predominance? How is the Maharsha more “predominant” than the HIDA? The former wrote a commentary to the Talmud, the latter wrote 36 books on all facets of Torah? Is it number of people influenced? Don’t forget that as of right the 1600s the Ashkenazic population eclipsed the Sephardic one. But that’s just a numbers game, not an inherent superiority.June 3, 2019 8:43 am at 8:43 am #1737048
Yabia: Where go you get your information to claim it was only in the 1600s that the Ashkenazic population became larger than the Sefardic? Even today, after the Ashkenazim just suffered a Holocaust, worldwide Jewry is numerically much more Ashkenazim.
In any event, go to any fully stocked Beis Medrash, even a Sefardic one, and simply count the number of mechaber seforim published after the generation that lived in Spain/Portugal totaling each from the Ashkenazim and from the Sephardim.June 3, 2019 8:43 am at 8:43 am #1737053DrYiddParticipant
i cannot imagine a sadder statement than groomed to be the gadol hador. we train dogs for competition; there is no training program to produce gedolai hador. askanim, with political agendas, may think otherwise. klal yisroel chooses its poskim/gedolim.June 3, 2019 8:43 am at 8:43 am #1737054
“Neither YU, nor Sephardic!”
Ah, so you’re like Avi K, a self-loathing Dati Leumi Ashkenazi who goes around trying to convince other Ashkenazim of our inferiority?
I don’t know how to measure prominence either, but it’s definitely not just a count of how many books one wrote. The Maharsha is more widely learned than the Hida.June 3, 2019 11:15 am at 11:15 am #1737102
I don’t know who AviK is but don’t put him down like that in public. What’s the matter with you, talking like that? And you ostensibly represent a Chashuv yeshiva (YCB) and this is how you act? Not nice.
When I speak of Meshugas, it’s something that the Ashkenazic community should take to heart and do some soul searching. Don’t take it as an insult. Take it as a “maybe we’ve gone too far in some respects and we should change course”. Nothing wrong with a little introspection.June 3, 2019 11:16 am at 11:16 am #1737154apushatayidParticipant
One can be certain that Rav Shlomo Kanievskys parents do/did all they could to ensure their son would become a gadol biyisroel. Its what all parents want and hopefully try to do.
The op is addressing the marketing of gedolim and their image by those with a vested interest, that is simply offensive and a bizayon hatorah.June 3, 2019 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1737165zahavasdadParticipant
Shulchan Aruch is a Sephardic Sefer, as is the Tur and the Rosh
The Meom Loez, while more popular in English is also a very well known Sefardi Sefer and in most librariesJune 3, 2019 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #1737224apushatayidParticipant
Lets call a spade a spade. There were no Galcianers, Litvaks, Poilishers, Hungarians, Syrians, Moroccans, Persians, Tunisians, Teimanim or Yekkes at Har Sinai.June 3, 2019 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1737232
i agree 100 % w/ Pashut’s last 2 statements. Very very well said.June 3, 2019 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1737301
“Sephardic Sefer, as is the Tur and the Rosh” incorrect on both accounts
When the Rosh fled to Spain he influenced one of the most distinguished communities of Spain, Toledo,
of the superiority of mesoras Ashkenaz. There are more than a few other examples. Why is there nary an example the other way?
(excepting the Romaniotes of the Balkans who switched from being under the sway of Franco-German Jewry to the newly Sephardic arrivals though that was due to sociopolitical as much as any else)June 3, 2019 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #1737334
I do not represent YCB, just people who like puns.
You do not represent sphardim, just people who like foaming at the mouth about non-existent arguments.
By the way, that wasn’t a put down, just a description. I’m not even sure Avi would be offended by it. He’s a proud Ashkenaz-basher. Did it hit close to home because you know it perfectly describes you, thus causing you to have the existential crisis that you are not unique but, in fact, a very predictable product of liberal, white-apologist culture that has been adapted into yiddishkeit?June 4, 2019 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1737703
Perhaps Ashkenazim are Khazars? How is that a “Superior mesora”?June 4, 2019 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1737704
Why is there nary an example the other way?
Excuse me? NUSACH SFARD???June 4, 2019 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1737758
Yabia: The Khazars lived in a Sefardic geographical area. Additionally, they were kosher Jews. In any event, the idea that they represent most of either Sephardim or Ashkenazim is an anti-Semitic idea. They were melted into wherever (Sephardim, Ashkenazim) as a tiny proportion.
The Ashkenazim came from Eretz Yisroel to France/Germany while the Sephardim came from Bavel to Spain/Portugal.June 4, 2019 10:50 am at 10:50 am #1737868ubiquitinParticipant
Joseph asked, regarding the OP
“Who is “pushing” his name?”
These guys:June 5, 2019 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1738587
Yabia=Arthur koestlerJune 5, 2019 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #1738589
In case you were out to lunch DNA has disproven that one thoroughly
though Ukrainian, Carpathian ,bukharian Jews may have an admixture of bloodJune 5, 2019 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #1738644
Well now that Yabia has taken it upon himself to peddle the same conspiracy theories as history’s greatest anti-Semitic monsters, I think we can wrap this discussion up.June 5, 2019 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1738660
The great scholars of medieval Jewish history (Soloveitchik, Brody, Ta Shma, Berger, Emanuel, and others) are divided as to the origins of the Great and Holy Ashkenazic communities in the 10th and 11th centuries. The balance of opinion currently is that the origins were in Bavel and not Eretz Yisrael. The debate is a lively one, to say the least. Sources upon request.June 5, 2019 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1738667
People are claiming Mesoratic Superiority so let’s call a spade a spade. I personally would go with people whose mesora is unbroken from say Spain back to Geonim back to Amoraim rather than some questionable European Jewish lineage.June 5, 2019 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #1739071BillyweeParticipant
Back to the subject. Lets be honest. This is a political move to i stall the next “Gadol Hador” that will lead in the future. How come noone heardod him or considered him a Gadol until now? Giving out “cards” showing his yichus? Convenient timing for the cards. How does everyone not see whats so transparent? I thought the yeshiva community was smart and aware to not be taken for a ride. If this is the sophistication of the community I have to get to work because ill be able to rob it blind. Hows really running this? Whos calling him the Gadol Hador? Did R’ Moshe become GH by us being told so or did e eryo e recognize his greatness in their own? Whose pushing his name out there? Whose giving out the cards? Think people, think.June 5, 2019 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1739116
Yabia: There is no questionable European lineage. Do you actually consider Rashi and baalei Tosfos to be goyim?! Regarding Sephardim’s broken lineage following the expulsion, 50% of Sefardim converted to Christianity rather than leave Spain and Portugal.June 5, 2019 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1739115
rational: sources, please.June 5, 2019 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1739153
Both of my grandmothers Ironically were German Jews and their families were Western German for centuries
Both of their families largely or partly originated from Spain or for one the Balearic Islands Prior to expulsionJune 5, 2019 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #1739152
Israel has been the leading theory since before Halevi
more importantly DNA is leading in that direction eg yemenite Jews and Palestinian Arabs
more closely related to Ashkenazi than BabylonianJune 5, 2019 7:15 pm at 7:15 pm #1739135
Rashi was meyuchas to King David so no. But there is such a thing as Ben Gerim. I wouldn’t respect Rashi less if he were a descendant of converts.June 5, 2019 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #1739175
Given that Ashkenazim came from Eretz Yisroel to France/Germany, whereas Sephardim went from Bavel to Spain/Portugal, it’s more likely that Sephardim lost their lineage at some point within. Especially once half of the Sephardim converted under the Inquisiton, all bets were off.June 5, 2019 9:42 pm at 9:42 pm #1739209
How did you conclude that A came from Israel and S can’t from Babylon? That’s false. There were Jews who why directly to Spain from the times of the Temple. ALL Jews ultimately came from Israel. That’s where we originated! Unless you’re Khazar.June 6, 2019 12:15 am at 12:15 am #1739243
The Khazar’s lived in a Sefardic part of the world.June 6, 2019 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1739246
Doros harishonim And the traditions of the Jews of Italy would be a good place to startJune 6, 2019 8:46 am at 8:46 am #1739297
1. Collected Essays I and II by Haym Soloveitchik (English)
2. מנהג אשכנז הקדמון , ישראל תא-שמע
3. Criticism and response Soloveitchik-Brody found in Soloveitchik’s personal site
This is a good start, of course there is more
I will not deal here with amateurs who “claim to know” based on biased half-baked sources from different time periods. Anyone familiar with population migration, the founder effect and other phenomena knows that conclusive evidence, DNA or not, is virtually impossible. Furthermore, quantity is worth much less than quality. Simply being an Ashkenazic Jew does not confer influence on the halachah, culture or customs of the entire group. The existence of one Rabbeinu Gershom was far more influential than a hundred post-churban ashkenazic Jews somewhere in Europe.
There are strong arguments on both sides of this debate. The common denominator is that there is a paucity of reliable information on the history of Ashkenazic Jewry. Just for starters, find some reliable information on Rabbeinu Gershom’s teacher, Rabbi Levontin. Other than his Italian name, we know virtually nothing about him.
Only a reading of the books (they are long) will present a more informative picture. Some of the material is in Hebrew, a necessity here. I am also an amateur and I differ to the scholars. But I read them, and they are all worth reading. No shortcuts. The last word has not been spoken .
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