Who said tachanun today?

Home Forums Decaffeinated Coffee Who said tachanun today?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 56 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #2147633
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    When will chasidim stop with the no tachanun absurdity?

    #2147824
    yeshivaguy45
    Participant

    Someone I know asked a Rosh yeshiva about the minhag of not saying tachanun from after isru chag sukkos thru Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan. He said that it’s a chassidishe minhag and chassidim don’t want to “drop their hat” (put their head down for tachanun) so they look for ways to get out of tachanun.

    #2147858
    motchah11
    Participant

    That’s ridiculous. That Rosh Yeshivah is saying that bochurim make policy, but by Chassidim it’s married yungerleit that make policy and minhag, not bochurim.

    #2147866
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Omitting tachanun, chasidim hold, is to avoid being meorer dinim

    #2147872
    Lostspark
    Participant

    Are you a troll or a snag, perhaps even both?

    #2147880
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Snag is a hateful epithet. The tzemach tzedek wrote that hisnagdus was good for chasidus, so that the “fire of toras hanistar wouldn’t burn the toras hanigleh”

    #2147907
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    @Nodel please stop making fun of people you disagree with, don’t understand and don’t want to try to understand. If you lived in the tines of the Tannoim or Amoraim you would have gone meshige. See yaknehaz sugia, for example. Minhag Yisroel Torah, even when it’s not YOUR minhag

    #2147918
    rightwriter
    Participant

    Avirah, Ive come across that few times, do you know the source for that quote?

    #2147925
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    It’s from the tzemach tzedek; I’ve seen it a few times.. I can’t find the source right now

    #2147956
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    The shulchan aruch says that one is considered an Avaryan for not saying the long tachanun on Monday and Thursday. Saying that the Toras hanistar can burn the toras hanigleh is absolute silliness and probably kfira. Besides, what do chasidim know of toras hanistar?


    @baltimoremaven
    I really cannot understand anything you said. Is it supposed to relate to me or this topic?

    #2147967

    I think he was telling you to stop ripping on people just cuz you don’t get it.

    #2147980
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    But I do get it… I think

    #2147984
    jackk
    Participant

    SN,

    Do some research!
    Call up a Chasidishe Rav for mekoros.
    Check a few seforim that talk about it .
    The seforim of the Shefa Chaim from Klausenberg discuss the minhag and it is based on solid sources from Tzadikim.
    How you can be mevatel a minhag that millions of Jews keep without doing any research?

    #2148021
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Nodel, you seriously misunderstood something there.

    Also, quoting some Leytzanus from a Rosh Yeshiva doesn’t necessarily make him look good. You really think this Minhag started on its own?

    Why don’t we say Tachnun on Rosh Chodesh? Is our Mekor an Aggadeta Gemara? If so, does it end there?

    #2148080
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Is Nodel a troll?

    #2148130
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    A new minhag cannot replace a halacha, especially one that makes you an avaryan

    #2148133
    Shimon Nodel
    Participant

    @baltimoremaven YES! I am trying very hard to troll chasidim! I thought that was obvious from the beginning of this thread. However, that doesn’t make my point any less valid. An avaryan is not a simple matter.

    #2148152
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    See MB 134:1
    I think you’re referring to someone who does not say the elongated tachanun on mon/thurs
    He’s not called an avaryan, rather a poretz geder.

    That can refer to someone who has no justification for skipping the long tachanun. Chasidim have a justification for not saying it altogether.

    #2148160
    jackk
    Participant

    SN,

    You are a troll because you decided that you are a bigger Talmid Chochom than all the Tzaddikim who have the minhag of skipping tachanun.
    As Rav Schachter shlit”a would say “It is not mechzei K’yuhurah . It is mamash Yuhara.”

    #2148162
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Why don’t they say tachanun?

    #2148178
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    I can show you the text of tachanun in every nusach Sefard siddur, every siddur used by every Chassidishe Rebbe and by all Chassidim. They do day tachanun regularly. They also have minhagim hundreds of years old to refrain from tachanun on certain days. Lav Davka Mondays and Thursdays. Many Rebbes would ask mohelim to daven elsewhere so the minyan could say tachanun. So yiu are just misinformed. And plain wrong. And motzei laaz on an entire sector of Yidden.

    #2148180
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Also I davened at a Chassidishe minyan yesterday and today and tachanun was said both mornings. Much to my chagrin.

    #2148215

    SN is asking an old question – can a group break a minhag of their ancestors and later insist that their minhag needs to be respected.

    I saw this mocked in a short-term: when a kibutznik asks a RY to send the child home because he is not following minhag of his father. The response – he _is_ following minhag of his father, that is completely rejecting what the father was doing!

    One might argue that a couple of hundred years, as SN does, that a couple of hundred years is not much different.

    #2148226
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Baltimore,

    This is not a hundred years old minhag.

    #2148241
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Back in the Old Country, every locale had their own tachanun calendar. Many Chassidim took on many different calendars. I’ve seen this evolve even today, with my own eyes. It really needs a justification. But it won’t happen.

    #2148246
    pekak
    Participant

    When will the litvishe stop with the absurdity of asking chassanim to daven elsewhere?

    #2148250
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Jackk,

    The tzaddikim that are greater than Shimon, (assuming there are greater ones) have greater issues to deal with. You can’t back up a somewhat minor issue with the fact that people let it pass.

    #2148253
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Pekak, if BMG didn’t do that, they literally would never say tachanun

    #2148256
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Pekak,

    That is not the request. Maybe you can provide a sustainable answer.

    I was told by one group that their siddur that was written by their Rebbe almost two hundred years ago, does not have tachanun by Mincha. I thought that was silly, because some older siddurim only print it once and your supposed to turn back. Anyways, I found a siddur from that group that had it printed by Mincha. One chassid told me he has a copy of the original siddur. Nobody else cared. After a few months, he finally lent it to me. It had tachanun by Mincha. And mentioned very few days that tachanun is omitted. They still did not care. And, when asked, they still claim that it is not in the Rebbe’s siddur.

    What really bothers me, is their lack of confidence to just saw this is how we do it now.

    #2148275
    pekak
    Participant

    Avirah

    Halacha is Halacha is Halacha.

    #2148276
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    The almost universal minhag of Chassidim is to not say tachanun by mincha. Of course, mincha is typically davened by them at or after shkiah and tachanun isn’t supposed to be said after shkiah.

    #2148296
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Pekak, what issue is there in halacha to prohibit chasanim from davening in BMG?

    #2148300
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    hundreds of kehillos kedoshos not saying tachanun by mincha every day would constitute a source for this minhag

    The minhag of many Chassidish kehilos is not to say tachanun at mincha. This minhag is recorded in many Chassidic and Sefardic sources. A number of explanations are offered:

    1 they often daven until after shkiya, and according to many opinions tachanun may not be said after shkiya, so a blanket rule was instituted so as never to come to saying after shkiya, which in some kabbalistic sources danger is associated with this practice.

    2 tachanun by mincha requires intense concentration, which most people don’t have in the middle of their day

    3 after it is night in Israel tachanun should not be said even in other parts of the world

    Sources:
    Sefer Nimukei Orach Chaim, Shu”T Dvar Yehoshua Y:D 3:74, Zivchei Zedek siman 9 [minhag bagdad], Sefer Shulchan Hatohar Siman 22.

    #2148302
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    The Roshei Yeshiva would be horrified by that suggestion.

    #2148306
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Tachanun was never recited at a certain chassidish shteibl; each day was the yahrtzeit of some rebbe. One day, no one could think of a rebbe who had a yahrtzeit. “Whose yahrtzeit is today,” the gabbai asked. No one responded. “I demand that someone tell me which rebbe has a yahrtzeit,” the gabbai shouted. No response. “Do you mean to tell me that not one rebbe ever died on this day?!” the gabbai thundered! Its amazing! What a special day!. “No tachanun! Yisgadal!”

    #2148307
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    The Mishmeres Shalom Siman 12:4 explains that it is only for those who learned from that Tzaddik and had a connection to him. He derives it from the Rash”i In Yevamos 122B who uses the word “Regel” to describe a yartzeit;

    תלתא ריגלי – שהיו תלמידי חכמים נקבצים לשמוע דרשה הלכות פסח בפסח והיתה שואלת מהם. ובתשובת הגאונים מצאתי כל הנך ריגלי דאמוראי היינו יום שמת בו אדם גדול קובעים אותו לכבודו ומדי שנה בשנה כשמגיע אותו יום מתקבצים תלמידי חכמים מכל סביביו ובאים על קברו עם שאר העם להושיב ישיבה שם

    The Ketzos Hashulchan 1:24:5 says that not saying Tachanun is all based on Minhag. In the Badei Hashulchan 24:19 he mentions a minhag in Egypt to not say tachanun if there is a Bar Mitzvah, and in Poland if there is Yartzeit of a Tzadik.

    #2148308
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    Rashi in Meseches Yevomos68 states that the yartzeit of a tzaddik is a regel, and some poksim say based on this, no tachnun is recited on this day.69

    68. 122a “Tulsa.” Refer to Meshmeres Shalom 12:4, Avodas Ephraim 2:pages 510-515 on why some have the custom not to recite tachnun on a yartzeit of a tzaddik. Some say a yartzeit is like a chasuna (ibid). See Kaf Ha’chaim 580:24 who brings that the day of a yartzeit of a tzaddik is a day to fast not a regel. Refer to Shem Aryeh O.C. 14.
    69. Meshmeres Shalom ibid, Ketzos Hashulchan 24:badi 19.

    #2148316
    pekak
    Participant

    Avirah

    That is what I’m saying. Telling a chassan to daven elsewhere even beyechidus is against the halacha. If it means “never’ saying tachnun, so be it.

    #2148318
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Pekak – i agree that telling a chosson to daven beyechidus for that reason is problematic in halacha, but who ever is told that? There are a ton of minyonim chasanim can and do daven in. What’s the issue?

    #2148319
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Baltimore, very funny story; has a lot of chein

    #2148416
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    What about many chasidim davening shachris(with minyanim) late in the afternoon, according to NO shitta in the shulchan aruch. Is that also minhag kadosh?

    #2148441
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Get,

    It’s not just Chassidim.

    #2148446
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    How about ignoring a knowledge troll tread with a response.

    #2148476
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,

    Yeah, how about it?

    #2148510
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The explanation is given that the chasidim are like children who can come to their father, Hashem anytime.

    #2148520
    BaltimoreMaven
    Participant

    When I was a chosson I davened at a yoshiva in flatbush during Sheva brochos and I was asked to step out so they could say tachanun. Turns out there was a bris.

    #2148526
    Pine Lake Park
    Participant

    The reason we dont say Tachanun by Ma’ariv – is for the “meorer dinim” reason – no source in Halacha.
    Originally, Tachanun was the MAIN part of Davening – as explicit in Daniel – literally falling on the floor 3 times a day. But, because of the “meorer dinim” reason, we dont fall on the floor (the sphardim dont fall at all – the ashkenazim fall on the table – but not on the floor anymore – which is the real Halacha)
    All this is because of “meorer dinim” reason.
    Most Chassidim in LKWD are VERY makpid to say Tachanun, with 13 Midos, every day Shachris and Mincha – even after Shkiya.
    But, i guess, fpr some since the minhag ashkenaz is to fall on the table, they extend the “meorer dinim” reason even more.

    BUT EVERYONE TODAY HOLDS OF THE “meorer dinim” reason – IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER – AGAINST HALACHA!

    #2148558
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    To nOmesora
    I was talking about official minyanim that start after chatzos,not individuals

    #2148559
    AviraDeArah
    Participant

    Cheylev; who said there’s even a chiyuv m’dina to say tachanun?

    Also, reb e, there’s a better reason to justify davening late. Rav Meir Shapiro said that a rebbe is toraso umnaso, and is hence patur from davening in general; he can daven a tefilas nedava whenever he wants.

    Rav belsky said this over once on a shabbos; i asked him, how would this work for the chasidim, who are not toraso umnaso? He said with a smile that they’re farbunden with the Rebbe. He was litvish, but had a deep respect for chasidishe minhagim, with some exceptions.

    #2148561
    Get-r-dun
    Participant

    To reb eliezer
    Do you mean litvaks are not children of hashem?

Viewing 50 posts - 1 through 50 (of 56 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.