Who said tachanun today?
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- This topic has 55 replies, 17 voices, and was last updated 2 months, 4 weeks ago by HaLeiVi.
December 14, 2022 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #2147633
When will chasidim stop with the no tachanun absurdity?December 14, 2022 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #2147824yeshivaguy45Participant
Someone I know asked a Rosh yeshiva about the minhag of not saying tachanun from after isru chag sukkos thru Rosh Chodesh Cheshvan. He said that it’s a chassidishe minhag and chassidim don’t want to “drop their hat” (put their head down for tachanun) so they look for ways to get out of tachanun.December 14, 2022 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #2147858motchah11Participant
That’s ridiculous. That Rosh Yeshivah is saying that bochurim make policy, but by Chassidim it’s married yungerleit that make policy and minhag, not bochurim.December 14, 2022 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #2147866
Omitting tachanun, chasidim hold, is to avoid being meorer dinimDecember 14, 2022 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #2147872LostsparkParticipant
Are you a troll or a snag, perhaps even both?December 14, 2022 6:28 pm at 6:28 pm #2147880
Snag is a hateful epithet. The tzemach tzedek wrote that hisnagdus was good for chasidus, so that the “fire of toras hanistar wouldn’t burn the toras hanigleh”December 14, 2022 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #2147907
@Nodel please stop making fun of people you disagree with, don’t understand and don’t want to try to understand. If you lived in the tines of the Tannoim or Amoraim you would have gone meshige. See yaknehaz sugia, for example. Minhag Yisroel Torah, even when it’s not YOUR minhagDecember 14, 2022 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #2147918rightwriterParticipant
Avirah, Ive come across that few times, do you know the source for that quote?December 15, 2022 12:23 am at 12:23 am #2147925
It’s from the tzemach tzedek; I’ve seen it a few times.. I can’t find the source right nowDecember 15, 2022 7:50 am at 7:50 am #2147956
The shulchan aruch says that one is considered an Avaryan for not saying the long tachanun on Monday and Thursday. Saying that the Toras hanistar can burn the toras hanigleh is absolute silliness and probably kfira. Besides, what do chasidim know of toras hanistar?
@baltimoremaven I really cannot understand anything you said. Is it supposed to relate to me or this topic?December 15, 2022 8:02 am at 8:02 am #2147967🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
I think he was telling you to stop ripping on people just cuz you don’t get it.December 15, 2022 9:11 am at 9:11 am #2147980
But I do get it… I thinkDecember 15, 2022 9:40 am at 9:40 am #2147984jackkParticipant
Do some research!
Call up a Chasidishe Rav for mekoros.
Check a few seforim that talk about it .
The seforim of the Shefa Chaim from Klausenberg discuss the minhag and it is based on solid sources from Tzadikim.
How you can be mevatel a minhag that millions of Jews keep without doing any research?December 15, 2022 10:41 am at 10:41 am #2148021HaLeiViParticipant
Nodel, you seriously misunderstood something there.
Also, quoting some Leytzanus from a Rosh Yeshiva doesn’t necessarily make him look good. You really think this Minhag started on its own?
Why don’t we say Tachnun on Rosh Chodesh? Is our Mekor an Aggadeta Gemara? If so, does it end there?December 15, 2022 11:01 am at 11:01 am #2148080
Is Nodel a troll?December 15, 2022 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2148130
A new minhag cannot replace a halacha, especially one that makes you an avaryanDecember 15, 2022 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2148133
@baltimoremaven YES! I am trying very hard to troll chasidim! I thought that was obvious from the beginning of this thread. However, that doesn’t make my point any less valid. An avaryan is not a simple matter.December 15, 2022 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2148152
See MB 134:1
I think you’re referring to someone who does not say the elongated tachanun on mon/thurs
He’s not called an avaryan, rather a poretz geder.
That can refer to someone who has no justification for skipping the long tachanun. Chasidim have a justification for not saying it altogether.December 15, 2022 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #2148160jackkParticipant
You are a troll because you decided that you are a bigger Talmid Chochom than all the Tzaddikim who have the minhag of skipping tachanun.
As Rav Schachter shlit”a would say “It is not mechzei K’yuhurah . It is mamash Yuhara.”December 15, 2022 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2148162Reb EliezerParticipant
Why don’t they say tachanun?December 15, 2022 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #2148178
I can show you the text of tachanun in every nusach Sefard siddur, every siddur used by every Chassidishe Rebbe and by all Chassidim. They do day tachanun regularly. They also have minhagim hundreds of years old to refrain from tachanun on certain days. Lav Davka Mondays and Thursdays. Many Rebbes would ask mohelim to daven elsewhere so the minyan could say tachanun. So yiu are just misinformed. And plain wrong. And motzei laaz on an entire sector of Yidden.December 15, 2022 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #2148180
Also I davened at a Chassidishe minyan yesterday and today and tachanun was said both mornings. Much to my chagrin.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148215Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
SN is asking an old question – can a group break a minhag of their ancestors and later insist that their minhag needs to be respected.
I saw this mocked in a short-term: when a kibutznik asks a RY to send the child home because he is not following minhag of his father. The response – he _is_ following minhag of his father, that is completely rejecting what the father was doing!
One might argue that a couple of hundred years, as SN does, that a couple of hundred years is not much different.December 15, 2022 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #2148226
This is not a hundred years old minhag.December 15, 2022 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #2148241
Back in the Old Country, every locale had their own tachanun calendar. Many Chassidim took on many different calendars. I’ve seen this evolve even today, with my own eyes. It really needs a justification. But it won’t happen.December 15, 2022 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #2148246
When will the litvishe stop with the absurdity of asking chassanim to daven elsewhere?December 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2148250
The tzaddikim that are greater than Shimon, (assuming there are greater ones) have greater issues to deal with. You can’t back up a somewhat minor issue with the fact that people let it pass.December 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2148253
Pekak, if BMG didn’t do that, they literally would never say tachanunDecember 15, 2022 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #2148256
That is not the request. Maybe you can provide a sustainable answer.
I was told by one group that their siddur that was written by their Rebbe almost two hundred years ago, does not have tachanun by Mincha. I thought that was silly, because some older siddurim only print it once and your supposed to turn back. Anyways, I found a siddur from that group that had it printed by Mincha. One chassid told me he has a copy of the original siddur. Nobody else cared. After a few months, he finally lent it to me. It had tachanun by Mincha. And mentioned very few days that tachanun is omitted. They still did not care. And, when asked, they still claim that it is not in the Rebbe’s siddur.
What really bothers me, is their lack of confidence to just saw this is how we do it now.December 15, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2148275
Halacha is Halacha is Halacha.December 15, 2022 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #2148276
The almost universal minhag of Chassidim is to not say tachanun by mincha. Of course, mincha is typically davened by them at or after shkiah and tachanun isn’t supposed to be said after shkiah.December 15, 2022 11:29 pm at 11:29 pm #2148296
Pekak, what issue is there in halacha to prohibit chasanim from davening in BMG?December 15, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2148300
hundreds of kehillos kedoshos not saying tachanun by mincha every day would constitute a source for this minhag
The minhag of many Chassidish kehilos is not to say tachanun at mincha. This minhag is recorded in many Chassidic and Sefardic sources. A number of explanations are offered:
1 they often daven until after shkiya, and according to many opinions tachanun may not be said after shkiya, so a blanket rule was instituted so as never to come to saying after shkiya, which in some kabbalistic sources danger is associated with this practice.
2 tachanun by mincha requires intense concentration, which most people don’t have in the middle of their day
3 after it is night in Israel tachanun should not be said even in other parts of the world
Sefer Nimukei Orach Chaim, Shu”T Dvar Yehoshua Y:D 3:74, Zivchei Zedek siman 9 [minhag bagdad], Sefer Shulchan Hatohar Siman 22.December 15, 2022 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #2148302
The Roshei Yeshiva would be horrified by that suggestion.December 15, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2148306
Tachanun was never recited at a certain chassidish shteibl; each day was the yahrtzeit of some rebbe. One day, no one could think of a rebbe who had a yahrtzeit. “Whose yahrtzeit is today,” the gabbai asked. No one responded. “I demand that someone tell me which rebbe has a yahrtzeit,” the gabbai shouted. No response. “Do you mean to tell me that not one rebbe ever died on this day?!” the gabbai thundered! Its amazing! What a special day!. “No tachanun! Yisgadal!”December 15, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2148307
The Mishmeres Shalom Siman 12:4 explains that it is only for those who learned from that Tzaddik and had a connection to him. He derives it from the Rash”i In Yevamos 122B who uses the word “Regel” to describe a yartzeit;
תלתא ריגלי – שהיו תלמידי חכמים נקבצים לשמוע דרשה הלכות פסח בפסח והיתה שואלת מהם. ובתשובת הגאונים מצאתי כל הנך ריגלי דאמוראי היינו יום שמת בו אדם גדול קובעים אותו לכבודו ומדי שנה בשנה כשמגיע אותו יום מתקבצים תלמידי חכמים מכל סביביו ובאים על קברו עם שאר העם להושיב ישיבה שם
The Ketzos Hashulchan 1:24:5 says that not saying Tachanun is all based on Minhag. In the Badei Hashulchan 24:19 he mentions a minhag in Egypt to not say tachanun if there is a Bar Mitzvah, and in Poland if there is Yartzeit of a Tzadik.December 15, 2022 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #2148308
Rashi in Meseches Yevomos68 states that the yartzeit of a tzaddik is a regel, and some poksim say based on this, no tachnun is recited on this day.69
68. 122a “Tulsa.” Refer to Meshmeres Shalom 12:4, Avodas Ephraim 2:pages 510-515 on why some have the custom not to recite tachnun on a yartzeit of a tzaddik. Some say a yartzeit is like a chasuna (ibid). See Kaf Ha’chaim 580:24 who brings that the day of a yartzeit of a tzaddik is a day to fast not a regel. Refer to Shem Aryeh O.C. 14.
69. Meshmeres Shalom ibid, Ketzos Hashulchan 24:badi 19.December 16, 2022 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2148316
That is what I’m saying. Telling a chassan to daven elsewhere even beyechidus is against the halacha. If it means “never’ saying tachnun, so be it.December 16, 2022 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2148318
Pekak – i agree that telling a chosson to daven beyechidus for that reason is problematic in halacha, but who ever is told that? There are a ton of minyonim chasanim can and do daven in. What’s the issue?December 16, 2022 12:33 am at 12:33 am #2148319
Baltimore, very funny story; has a lot of cheinDecember 16, 2022 7:59 am at 7:59 am #2148416
What about many chasidim davening shachris(with minyanim) late in the afternoon, according to NO shitta in the shulchan aruch. Is that also minhag kadosh?December 16, 2022 8:59 am at 8:59 am #2148441
It’s not just Chassidim.December 16, 2022 8:59 am at 8:59 am #2148446commonsaychelParticipant
How about ignoring a knowledge troll tread with a response.December 16, 2022 10:13 am at 10:13 am #2148476
Yeah, how about it?December 16, 2022 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2148510Reb EliezerParticipant
The explanation is given that the chasidim are like children who can come to their father, Hashem anytime.December 16, 2022 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2148520
When I was a chosson I davened at a yoshiva in flatbush during Sheva brochos and I was asked to step out so they could say tachanun. Turns out there was a bris.December 16, 2022 10:14 am at 10:14 am #2148526Bath TavathParticipant
The reason we dont say Tachanun by Ma’ariv – is for the “meorer dinim” reason – no source in Halacha.
Originally, Tachanun was the MAIN part of Davening – as explicit in Daniel – literally falling on the floor 3 times a day. But, because of the “meorer dinim” reason, we dont fall on the floor (the sphardim dont fall at all – the ashkenazim fall on the table – but not on the floor anymore – which is the real Halacha)
All this is because of “meorer dinim” reason.
Most Chassidim in LKWD are VERY makpid to say Tachanun, with 13 Midos, every day Shachris and Mincha – even after Shkiya.
But, i guess, fpr some since the minhag ashkenaz is to fall on the table, they extend the “meorer dinim” reason even more.
BUT EVERYONE TODAY HOLDS OF THE “meorer dinim” reason – IN ONE WAY OR ANOTHER – AGAINST HALACHA!December 16, 2022 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2148558
I was talking about official minyanim that start after chatzos,not individualsDecember 16, 2022 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2148559
Cheylev; who said there’s even a chiyuv m’dina to say tachanun?
Also, reb e, there’s a better reason to justify davening late. Rav Meir Shapiro said that a rebbe is toraso umnaso, and is hence patur from davening in general; he can daven a tefilas nedava whenever he wants.
Rav belsky said this over once on a shabbos; i asked him, how would this work for the chasidim, who are not toraso umnaso? He said with a smile that they’re farbunden with the Rebbe. He was litvish, but had a deep respect for chasidishe minhagim, with some exceptions.December 16, 2022 10:47 am at 10:47 am #2148561
To reb eliezer
Do you mean litvaks are not children of hashem?
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