September 22, 2010 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #592441bptParticipant
I just read a lette to an advice column in a newspaper that caters to the charedi oilam. The senario was this:
Young couple, now with child, she wants to have a working hubby, hubby says no way. Girls father pushed the shidduch, thinking that the boy would “come around” as the older sibling works. Boy says, no way. Girl wants out.
So who’s at fault?
Girl? – After all, she said yes to the proposal.
Dad? – He did not (was afraid to?)verify the boy’s intent.
Boy? – After all, it is HIS JOB to support his wife and child.
Father of boy? – Regardless of his statement of intent at the time the shidduch was sealed, he should now be setting his son straight and make him into the man he presented himself as under the chuppah.
The system? – Because our system leads all 3 to believe that this problem somehow resolves itself.
(I’m leaving out the shadchan, becuase there was no mention made of one or what the extent of the shadchan may have played in nailing down details.)
Regardless of fault, the phrase that came to my mind when I read this is from Eicha; “al eileh ani bo’chiya”
The biggest victim of all? The child, who had no say in the matter at all, and is now a helpless pawn.
Bochurim-soon-to-be-chassanim.. READ THIS AND THINK FOR A MINUTE. What would you do?September 22, 2010 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #697891HelpfulMember
And agreement was made prior to marriage. Who is breaking it? That’s where the fault lies. But that is a technicality. A person has a right to dedicate his life to Limud Torah, especially if so agreed. Why is divorce on the menu here? That is the problem with these fickle people who run to divorce at time of disagreement/trouble. No get is warranted in this case described, no get is entitled to in this case described, and no get ought to be granted to a parties demand for one.September 22, 2010 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #697892
“Bochurim-soon-to-be-chassanim.. READ THIS AND THINK FOR A MINUTE. What would you do?”
Its very clear that in the chareidi system the parents do all the research and this type of information is basic to the marriage and I can’t imagine how this happened unless the girl and father fooled themselves into thinking they’d “change” him or manipulate him to go work. The father and girl are both dead wrong and theres a whole bunch of colorful words to call them. How dare they use this guy as a pawn and then bring a child into the world who will have to grow up with divorced parents?!!!
I think the time has come to start getting things in writing. They should sign a shtar that says that the father is willing to support the boy to learn x amount of years after which he will go work. I’m surprised this isn’t done yet!!!!September 22, 2010 6:45 pm at 6:45 pm #697893squeakParticipant
Why does the fault go back to the beginning of time? The fault is right now. For some reason the two parties involved (husband and wife) cannot agree on a basic and important issue (sustenance of the family).
It does not matter what was said previously. If a couple wants to stay married then they have to be able to work something out now. If not, they are both at fault. Right now. Work it out or take the blame.September 22, 2010 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #697894SacrilegeMember
Its the Boy & the Girls fault.
If you are ready to get married and have kids you should be able to compromise and problem solve.
Girl – you dont destroy (and just “pull out” out of a marriage) because you have a disagreement WORK IT OUT, compromise!
Boy – is it worth it for your wife to be miserable so that you can learn for a couple more hours a day? What is that learning worth?
Bottom line is Marriage is about COMPROMISE, there is no place for selfishness in a marriage you have to just be constantly thinking about the other person. No one promised you life would turn out a certain way, and there are no guarantees.September 22, 2010 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #697896
I really don’t understand you people. Doesn’t a word mean anything? Furthermore, if a guy wanted to learn a certain # of years or for life, that’s something that’s very important to him, considering that he’s a serious learner and its a MAJOR life decision, not something minor where you can see oh just grow up and forget about what you want. Yes marriage is about compromise but not at the expense of completely throwing away everything that’s important to you!!!! If he gives in what type of marriage will they have? He will likely be utterly miserable and resentful for the rest of his life!!September 22, 2010 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #697897mw13Participant
I would have to say its the girl/girl’s father’s fault. If you/your daughter can’t live with x conditions, why on earth would you agree to them in the first place?! If you agree to something you have no intention of fulfilling, you have nobody to blame but yourself.September 22, 2010 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #697898
What does this guys rosh yeshiva say?September 23, 2010 6:52 pm at 6:52 pm #697899MiriamMember
Moadim L’Simcha from Israel…………
It is very nice that the guy wants to learn but, with a child on the way he should learn in the evening and work during the day, It is HIS responsibility to support his wife and child. This couple dearly needs counselling. You don’t run away [divorce] when you have a disagreement you discuss and make compromises.September 26, 2010 2:17 am at 2:17 am #697900
A better question is: What do they do now?
It doesn’t really matter anymore whose fault it was. They are married.
That said, I’ll discuss fault anyway.
It’s pretty clear the father and daughter are both idiots. The father deserves to be shot.
Also, how could this happen? Why was the girl willing to get engaged to someone with whom she was obviously not comfortable in confiding her basic life plan?
The guy is also at fault on this count, as he should have not gotten engaged if they weren’t talking honestly and openly.
Also, “What does this guys rosh yeshiva say?”
He says Shiur.September 26, 2010 2:18 am at 2:18 am #697901Pashuteh YidMember
While I am not one who normally encourages full-time learning, except for yechidei segula, I think if there was an agreement here, she may be required to honor it.
There is a mishna which states that if a girl promises a certain dowry to her chosson, and she goes back on it (pashta lo es haregel), then she may remain an agunah for the rest of her life (teishev ad shetalbin rosha). In other words, he need not marry or divorce her, but leave her in limbo (kiddushin but no nesuin). However the Rambam says that if the promise was made by the girl, then this applies. However, if the promise was made by her father, and he dies, then she can say, what can I do, I tried my best. Either marry me or divorce me so I can marry somebody else.
It seem that if the situation changes, like the boy was receiving a certain kollel income, but he no longer is, and they are starving, then he must reassess and possibly make up for the money in some way or another. But if the circumstances have not changed, and the girl just wants a higher standard of living, then she may not be entitled to it, if she promised to live on the lower income, which continues.
Just my thoughts. Of course if she absolutely can’t take it, then maybe she should divorce, but that would be a tragedy for the child.
The moral of the story is that people must not make deals before they understand all the ramifications and are sure they can keep them. This is true of buying a house or car as well. One can’t decide a few months later that he wanted a blue car instead of red, and now wants to skip the payments.
Anyway, here, the best advice may be Ann Lander’s sage wisdom, are you better off with him or without him?September 26, 2010 2:27 am at 2:27 am #697902Box O Stupid PeopleParticipant
It is important that the guys rosh yeshiva says shiur. thats a good starting point. i think what was mant to be said was what hashkafos has he imbibed from his rosh yeshivas shiur that would help him in this situationSeptember 26, 2010 2:35 am at 2:35 am #697903Josh31Participant
The Torah obligates him to support the family.
The Ketubah obligates him.
Did she make a Mechilah (forgiveness) of this obligation with such a powerful Kinyan that she can not later insist on her rights?September 26, 2010 2:41 am at 2:41 am #697904SacrilegeMember
PBA – “The father deserves to be shot.”
Um, no he doesnt? If you are old enough to get married, you are old enough to make your own decision. Whilst the Father may have been pushy, he didnt hold a gun to anyones headand say, “Marry or else…”
PY – “I think if there was an agreement here, she may be required to honor it.”
When was the last time your life turned out exactly as planned? No one can set in stone what they are going to do. Which is why it annoys me when girls or guys say I want to have a commitment to leave in Israel for at least x years. Oh yea? And when did you get your lisence to run the world. The same thing with learning, or anything else, for that matter.September 26, 2010 2:41 am at 2:41 am #697905
In most yeshivos, all you imbibe from shiur is Torah. There are very few roshei yeshiva who speak hashkafa during shiur.
To quote a certain well known mashgiach, “Why don’t we tell them? BECAUSE THEY DON’T LISTEN!”September 26, 2010 2:44 am at 2:44 am #697906
Actually, what I meant was, did this fellow discuss his plans to get divorced with his rosh yeshiva, and if he did, what advice did he get? If he didn’t, why not.September 26, 2010 2:49 am at 2:49 am #697907
(My translation) Like the case of R’ Adda bar Ahava, he was going to the house of Rav. His wife said to him, “What shall I do regarding [feeding] your children?”. He said to her, “Are there no more vegetables in the swamp?”.September 26, 2010 2:51 am at 2:51 am #697908Box O Stupid PeopleParticipant
pba: One should consider it quite obvious that i was not talking about speaking hashkafa during shiur. This is of course bitul Torah.
One should instead understand that any guy of any considerable caliber should be able to draw out of the torah he is learning from his rebbi how it is proper to act.September 26, 2010 3:09 am at 3:09 am #697909
The attitude shouldn’t be whose at fault, because this scenario takes place a lot nowadays. Sometimes the couple works it out by themselves -“I’ll learn x amount a years and then go out to work.” “I’ll go out to work tomorrow.” Or the woman aquieses and gets a babysitter and continues working. If they can’t work it out- they go to a Rosh Yeshiva or a Rov. If they still can’t come to common ground -it’s time for marital therapy. As far as people not saying the truth in the first place -this is a common problem in our generation, almost as common as loshon hora!September 26, 2010 3:12 am at 3:12 am #697910Josh31Participant
popa_bar_abba, we are not going to allow this Gemara to be used for widespread use by men to get out of their family obligations.
For one consideration, he would have to prove that his level of dedication and learning was on the level of R’Adda bar Ahava.September 26, 2010 2:13 pm at 2:13 pm #697912
It sounds like this couple has not planted any roots in this marriage. The story was prefaced with “this is a column catering to a chareidi olam”. From this we can surmise that the couple did not have much contact other than the initial beshow and therefore did not really discuss much of anything with each other. So everything was discussed and arranged between the two parents. The girl’s wishes and dreams were either never voiced or voiced only to her own parents and not to the boy or his parents. So the husband can not be faulted from the start, only for not being understanding at this point as a husband.
The wife on the other hand, knew what she was getting in to, and basically wanted to derail a young man whose wish was to be a long term learner. So how did she set up her marriage? What kind of wife was she to her husband? Did she see to his every need? Did she make this the best marriage he could have ever hope for so when the time came that she would make this request it would be something he might consider? Did she see the joy he had in his learning? Where are they holding in their marriage at this point when she is bringing up this issue? And where is her love for her child as she makes her selfish demand on her husband who most likely did not have a clue that it was coming?
Is there any love and foundation in this marriage that a compromise can be worked out? Is the wife herself working and does not want to leave the child with a babysitter? Does she not value his learning? What are the issues at this particular point? Or are there no issues just the original concept that she and her father agreed on? All this needs to be looked at and taken into consideration. There are many pieces to the puzzle and most of the achreius obviously falls on the girl’s father who orchestrated the ruse. He should do whatever is necessary to save the marriage even if HE himself has to support the family.September 26, 2010 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #697913
Popa and aries,
Its good to see some people have seichel yasharah here.September 26, 2010 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #697914
Aries – My situation was worse – I was told I can sit and learn, but right after the marriage – I wasn’t given a dime. I still tried to continue and offered to go out to work. I tried many things but never had hatzlocho. Eventually, it finally collapsed. Life is full of nisyanos and I try to accept mine.September 26, 2010 4:36 pm at 4:36 pm #697915
Health, sorry to hear that. I hope you can forgive and move on. Hashem is the ultimate score keeper. Everyone will have to account for and pay for what they do to others. Nuch 120 everyone has to give their din v’cheshbon in front of their maker.September 26, 2010 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #697916
Aries – I can forgive for myself, but not for my kids. She is trying/has made some of the kids frei.September 26, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #697917
Health, you can only be the best Jew you can be and be the best role model you can be for your kids. The kids have their own bechira and their own healing to do. With time they will learn to see the truth and will come to the understanding and seichel that only time, age and maturity can bring. The parent that blames, faults and disrespects the other parent in the eyes of the children is usually the parent that loses the children causing the children to defend and protect the other parent. It is always best to allow the children to make up their own minds and come to their own conclusions. A child needs and deserves 2 parents good or bad. It is up to the child to decide as they grow and mature if in fact either or both are either good or bad or just different or whether either, both or none are right or wrong or just different.
You will always be their father and they will always be your children and that means that you will always have the opportunity to teach them mostly by being the best role model you can be for them. So please never feel defeated and never give up.
Hatzlocha rabbah.September 26, 2010 5:35 pm at 5:35 pm #697918
I don’t feel defeated and I haven’t given up. As a matter of fact I don’t even mostly blame my ex for the situation. I mostly blame her frei family and even more than them I blame her so-called frum friends!September 26, 2010 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #697919
Are you saying that the “frei family” agreed to support you in learning? That’s very unusual.September 26, 2010 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #697920
No, I didn’t know her mother was frei, like the rest of her family. (They don’t live together.) So I didn’t ask – who will contibute to the financial support. I assumed because they agreed to have such a guy, that I would be supported. The shadchan who’s my relative knew that I wanted to learn (or should have known) and I figuered if noone was going to contribute, I would have been informed. I wasn’t looking for a set amount. I was young and naive and I trusted my relatives. BTW, another relative is the reason of my break-up (from my other parent’s side).September 26, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #697921OfcourseMember
This whole question is irrelevant, unless theres a successful family business on either side, in which case the guy can learn while the father or father in law pays…!!! The girl is looking for the money, not the time-sheet.
Otherwise, if there isnt a thriving family business to go into, and very few businesses are thriving these days, in today’s economy there are very few jobs available altogether, and the ones that are available, are menial labor and not the kind where you can support a family well. In most cases, if you work on the books, you lose out on govt programs. Theres a reason so many guys have chosen to stay in learning. Very few want to be car service drivers and theres very few jobs that are more desirable to guys who are used to learning as a full time career. Better jobs usually neccesitate long years of school, and the resulting salary is a long way off, with many years of struggling in the middle.September 26, 2010 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #697922so rightMember
So the wife isn’t satisfied since she isn’t receiving the most ostentatious jewelry, doesn’t get the most fashionable clothing, and doesn’t live in a big enough house? She needs to grow up.September 26, 2010 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #697923OfcourseMember
so right, she wont be any more satisfied when he works for a car service, etc. See above. There are no satisfactory jobs, especially for the untrained. The only potentially good way out of this is both commiting to a few years of struggle while one or both get a good education.September 26, 2010 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #697924
The only real way “into” this is to understand what MARRIAGE is about and to admit the “lie” in the first place. Secondly is counseling to see if there is any foundation for the MARRIAGE to exist. And thirdly if there is something to salvage of the marriage, how the marriage can survive and who is responsible to support the family.
This young woman and her father should realize that her chances to marry again would be slim to none. So they should be extremely careful about their demands and think about what is best for the child. If this young man has been a good husband and a good father they should give tremendous thought before they give him up or rather chase him away.September 27, 2010 8:44 am at 8:44 am #697925
This scenario sounds contrived. if I was writing the answer for this column, I would reply that they are all wrong. If the boy has a monetary claim for support against the girls father, he should take him to beis din. If the girl has a monetary claim against her husband for not supporting her, she should take him to beis din. Once in beis din, where the monetary issue will be decided, I’m sure they will also recommend counseling for the whole lot. In short, my advise would be, go to a rav for a din torah.September 27, 2010 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #697926SJSinNYCMember
This post makes me so sad. I think society is the ultimate villian. But they each need to take responsibility for their actions.September 27, 2010 2:21 pm at 2:21 pm #697927
The problem with this whole scenario is that “Shalom Bayis” and the marriage itself is not the “ikar”.
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