Why are so many wine bottles named after Rishonim?
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- This topic has 50 replies, 16 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 2 months ago by ☕ DaasYochid ☕.
March 25, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #615296GoGoGoParticipant
Rashi, Bartenura, Alfasi,March 25, 2015 8:30 pm at 8:30 pm #1067022Little FroggieParticipant
Like I wrote before
Like I wrote before
Like I wrote before
Just a little longer…
The ASPCA, DOMH etc. have been duly notified… They’re on the way..March 25, 2015 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1067023akupermaParticipant
So you have an Italian wine, who do you name it after: How about call it the Titus to remind us what we have to think the Italians for. Perhaps we call it the Mussolini (well, he was a nice guy compated to the rest of his gang). No we pick a name associated with the place that has a positive association for Jews – and for many European country’s that means a rishon. It isn’t like those countries have done anything for us lately, but they do produce nice wines (maybe with global warming, we’ll get better wines in the New York, but until then…)March 26, 2015 4:26 am at 4:26 am #1067024
It’s a bizoyon to use these holy names for commercial products.March 26, 2015 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1067025
I always had the same question. Weird name for a wine.
And Alfasi? That’s also a wine name?March 26, 2015 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #1067026
Its a bizayon to use holy names for trolling
Rashi was a winemaker (or at the very least is beleived by some historians to have been one), thus it is a very appropriate name for a wine company. (I am not sure about the others)March 26, 2015 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1067027
that’s like naming a shul R’ Akiva Eiger because ra”e was a rav.March 26, 2015 7:55 pm at 7:55 pm #1067028WolfishMusingsParticipant
Bartenura is just the Hebrew name of the Italian town of Bertinoro, which is where R. Ovadiah is from.
Alfasi is Arabic for “of Fes,” which is the Moroccon city from which he hailed.
So, of your list of three name, two are geographic.
The WolfMarch 26, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1067029barlevParticipant
And street names after rabonim is acceptable? Israel is full of great, yet it find it uncomplemantry
Meet you at the corner of rashbi and baal Hanes…..March 26, 2015 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #1067030
Its not quite the same, but similar. At any rate are you agreeing or disagreeing?
Its more similar to naming a hospital MaimonidiesMarch 26, 2015 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1067031
What would you think of a new seltzer called Rav Ovadia’s Water?March 27, 2015 12:20 am at 12:20 am #1067032
Joseph: Interesting. Bartenura and Rashi were both named in honor of those Rishonim. Alfasi doesn’t seem to be related to the Rif but I can’t be sure. Either way, though, it’s intended as a Kavod. Wines are often named in honor of famous people. King David is a much bigger Taana than any of the Rishonim.March 27, 2015 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1067033Yosi7Member
ubiquitin- the whole thing with Rashi being a winemaker is pretty sketchy. Meaning, there is little to no evidence to support that.March 27, 2015 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1067034
Why is using the names of Bartenura, Rashi, Be’er Mayim Chaim, etc for commercial food brand names any less objectionable than for anyone to today establish new food products bearing all of the following brand names?:
Igros Moshe Cholent
Rav Eliashev Fish
Gerrer Rebbe Cookies
Rav Hershel Schachter Spices
Rav Belsky Orange Juice
Rav Pam Beans
Chofetz Chaim Chicken Soup
Rav Chaim Kanievsky MeatballsMarch 27, 2015 5:16 am at 5:16 am #1067035
sam2, king david wasn’t a tanna.March 27, 2015 5:45 am at 5:45 am #1067036barlevParticipant
Joseph, in Israel there is a meat brand called chofetz chaim, so you get chofetz chaim sausages 🙂March 27, 2015 5:54 am at 5:54 am #1067037
JosephL Because even in the non-Jewish industry, it’s considered a big Kavod to name wines after someone.
SDD: I said Taana. There is a wine named King David.March 27, 2015 9:39 am at 9:39 am #1067038Todros GimpelParticipant
The street names in Geula always irked me.
…bought a hat on Yeshaya.
…the garbage dumpster overflowed on Malachi.March 27, 2015 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1067039This name is already takenParticipant
There’s a pizza store called King David alsoMarch 27, 2015 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1067040
Sam: So we’re taking our cues on what is bakovidik from the non-Jews?March 27, 2015 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm #1067041
Joseph, I dont follow was R’ Moshe a chilent maker? Waa Rav Elyashiv a fishmonger? Etc…
Yosi7, i’m a step ahead. Reread post.
Scared ive reread your post a few times and am still not sure which way you are arguing.
At any rate here are a few yeshivos named after rabbonim. Feel free to add more:
Yeshivas rabeinu chaim berlin
Yeshivas rabeinu yitzchak elchanon
Beis yosef navardak (unless yosef was a donor)March 27, 2015 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #1067042
Joseph: Why not? If there’s no Makor in Torah that it’s a lack of Kavod and there’s no Makor in society that it lacks Kavod, why does it lack Kavod? Find me a Makor that it isn’t Mechubad. Otherwise, who made you (or me, or any few individuals) the arbiters on what constitutes Kavod and what doesn’t?March 27, 2015 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1067043apushatayidParticipant
For what it is worth, the bottles are not named after anyone. Neither are the wines.March 27, 2015 4:03 pm at 4:03 pm #1067044
sam2: oh. lol. sorry, I misread that.
ubiquitin I’m not sure which way I was arguing, either.
Chofetz Chaim & Bais yoseif don’t count because they mean something; it’s not their name
(Chasan sofer does count because even though it’s not his name it doesn’t mean much)
But anyway I don’t think these are analogous because it’s more like saying Yeshivas lizichron (or that was established by) Rabeinu… not like wines which is more like a tiltle
(OK, so you’re going to say that that’s what you meant here
but the truth is I meant ra”e like a title, not like a lz”n. Hope you followed me; I’m not sure how much sense I’m making.)
There’s also yeshivas RJJ.March 27, 2015 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #1067045
SDD: Well, none of those are names either. Alfasi and Bartenura are nicknames based on their home cities and Rashi is an acronym of his initials.March 27, 2015 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1067046
Rashi is an acronym for a name. Chofetz Chayyim has nothing to do with a name. (The point about Bartenura and ALfasi was already brought up before
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-are-so-many-wine-bottles-named-after-rishonim#post-562680)March 27, 2015 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1067047
ubiq: We’re not discussing whether it is a good marketing brand name. We’re discussing whether it is disrespectful to name a commercial product after a godol.March 29, 2015 1:07 am at 1:07 am #1067048
Though your compariosns should be relevant to the subject at hand. none of your examples made any senseMarch 29, 2015 2:12 am at 2:12 am #1067049
The relevancy of the made-up brand name to the godol is irrelevant (no pun intended) to the point I’m making.
Would you purchase a bottle of Rav Belsky Orange Juice*? Would you find that brand name objectionable?
*no affiliation with the named godol.March 29, 2015 2:46 am at 2:46 am #1067050
Joseph relevant or not it is nonsensical. At any rate:
Would you purchase a bottle of Rav Belsky Orange Juice*?
Assuming it was kosher and tasty. Absolutely
Would you find that brand name objectionable?
Assuming he allows it, no why would I?March 29, 2015 2:53 am at 2:53 am #1067051
Did Bartenura or Rashi give their assent to their names being utilized for commercial products? Or would you be okay with purchasing a jar of Rav Pam Beans?March 29, 2015 3:21 am at 3:21 am #1067052
No but they aren’t alive and they don’t have any descendents who can claim ownership of their name.
If Rav Pam’s descendants allowed it I would certainly be ok with buying it. (Though again, it would be a very strange name)March 29, 2015 3:33 am at 3:33 am #1067053
And do you for even a moment think that Rav Pam’s descendants would dare permit his name to be used on a commercial food product (even if there was some relevancy between the food and Rav Pam)?March 29, 2015 4:33 am at 4:33 am #1067054lesschumrasParticipant
Joseph, why don’t you ask themMarch 29, 2015 4:38 am at 4:38 am #1067055lesschumrasParticipant
Joseph, wine is viewed as an elegant product, thus naming a company after Rashi is viewed as an honor. Clearly you don’t, so don’t buy the product. It’s that simpleMarch 29, 2015 5:17 am at 5:17 am #1067056
serious sheesh. Joseph criticized the company’s choice of a name and you tell him “don’t buy the product” if you don’t like it??March 29, 2015 11:23 am at 11:23 am #1067058
“And do you for even a moment think that Rav Pam’s descendants would dare permit his name to be used on a commercial food product (even if there was some relevancy between the food and Rav Pam)”
If Rav Pam was a bean seller. I think they would sell them.
Do you think Rabbi Reisman is opposed to Reisman’s cookies? (I know this is a terrible example, but yours are much worse)
Do you think calling a hospital Maimonides or ???? ????? ???”? is wrong?
joseph said not to buy it)March 29, 2015 1:13 pm at 1:13 pm #1067059
If Rav Pam was a bean seller he wouldn’t have been Rav Pam.March 29, 2015 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1067060
Joseph: You haven’t answered my question. Find me a Makor in Torah or society that naming wine bottles after someone is a lack of Kavod.March 29, 2015 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #1067061
Find me a Makor in Torah or society that naming a cruise ship after someone is a lack of Kavod. The Queen Elizabeth II cruise ship is not a lack of kovod, right?
Would you find it objectionable for Cunard Line to name their next ship The RMS Rav Moshe Feinstein and target the Orthodox Jewish market? I certainly would.March 29, 2015 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1067062
Joseph: Correct. The name of a cruise liner is a sign of respect, not a lack of Kavod, and has been perceived as such by the world.
I asked for a source for your opinion. Your response was to merely restate that opinion.March 29, 2015 4:33 pm at 4:33 pm #1067063
“If Rav Pam was a bean seller he wouldn’t have been Rav Pam. “
That sounds like a lack of kavod to me! I beleive Rav Pam could have been a bean seller and Rav PAm. Shame on you for knocking a Gadol B’yisroel.
At any rate Rashi was (believed by some historians to have been) a wine merchant and Rahi at the same time. Which is why your examples above where nonsensical
Do you think calling a hospital Maimonides or ???? ????? ???”? is wrong?March 29, 2015 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #1067064Yosi7Member
Joseph- You might…but he was asking for a Mekor not what you find objectionable.March 29, 2015 6:36 pm at 6:36 pm #1067065
Reisman’s cookies is, as mentioned, a terrible example because it has nothing to do with Rabbi Reisman.
“Joseph said not to buy it”–you mean “would you purchase…”? Hm. I didn’t read it like that, but I have to say, it seems you’re right.
Joseph: Find me a Makor in Torah or society that naming a cruise ship after someone is a lack of Kavod. The Queen Elizabeth II cruise ship is not a lack of kovod, right?
Was that supposed to make snse?March 29, 2015 8:12 pm at 8:12 pm #1067066
I was partially parroting the poster I responded to.March 29, 2015 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1067067
uniq: I would categorize naming a hospital closer in similarity to naming a shul. I don’t think anybody would object to naming a shul or yeshiva after a godol. But neither is comparable to using a godol’s name for mercantile purposes.March 29, 2015 8:46 pm at 8:46 pm #1067068
I am so sorry to break this to you but hospitals are mercantile purposes as well. Granted they may be more chashuv than beans but so is wine.
“I don’t think anybody would object to naming a shul or yeshiva after a godol. “
Dont be so sure it is a very big often strange planet. I didtn think anybody would object to naming a wine after a Rishon who was (beleived to have been) a wine-merchantMarch 29, 2015 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1067069
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some Yeshivos are, too, “mercantile” in that sense. Many hospitals are non-profit, btw. But all this is besides the point.March 29, 2015 9:06 pm at 9:06 pm #1067070
I dont think non-profit means what you think it meansMarch 29, 2015 9:14 pm at 9:14 pm #1067071golferParticipant
I can’t say right or wrong, but I have to say that the first time, long ago, that I heard a hospital was called Maimonides, I didn’t like it a bit. It made me cringe until after a while as with so many things, I stopped noticing and no longer connect the name of the hospital to anyone. And yes I got the Rashi connection to wine but it took me a long time to get used to that too. Don’t laugh- I didn’t like having a pizza shop named after the holiest city in the world either.
There’s definitely a certain chutzpah in our generation that’s so pervasive we don’t even notice it any more.
Pnei hador k’pnei ha’kelev, anyone?
*** And can we please, please, stop using names of real Gedolim and Talmidei Chachamim in this thread? If I was a Mod, there are a few posts above that I’d send straight to the trash bin…
maskim . . .
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