Why Didn't Hilni Sit in a Kosher Sukkah?

Home Coffeeroom Bais Medrash Daf Yomi Sukkah Why Didn't Hilni Sit in a Kosher Sukkah?

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  • #612055

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to the Rabbanan, of course. According to R’ Yehudah, she did.

    Sure, she wasn’t mechuyeves, but she would still have gotten schar as an einah metzuvah v’osah.

    And, her sons’ sukkah was 20 amos or below, and her sukkah was above 20 amos, and they were connected, so it seems like it was b’davka.

    #1002410

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Maybe there was a feminist movement and she was reacting against it?

    #1002412

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, I think the feminist movement is an expression of the yetzer hora to be like the nations.

    I don’t assume that there was a feminist movement in the non Jewish society in the times of the Tannaim, so I don’t see why there would be one in Jewish society.

    #1002413

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, but because she was so powerful and was a woman, she was very machmir on anti-feminism to avoid becoming an icon.

    #1002414

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    So you’re suggesting that she, or the Chachomim whom she loyally followed, foresaw today’s “ism”, so had her sit in a possul sukkah?

    #1002415

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Either that, or the science of the time told them about it.

    #1002416

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Ok, so what’s pshat in R’ Yehuda?

    #1002417

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    he just said that so that slifkin would have someone to hold like.

    #1002418

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Anyhow, I made a mistake. The whole sukkah was higher than 20, the kosher part was wide enough to be good anyhow. So it wasn’t b’davka, but I think it’s still a fair question, why wouldn’t she have it built at 20 or below to be yotzei in her section.

    To add a bit to the question, there’s a machlokes whether or not a mother is mechuyeves in chinuch. If she’s not, then the expectation that the sukkah would be kosher for her sons is based on the assumption that she would even keep mitzvos that she wasn’t obligated to keep. (see P’nei Yehoshua).

    #1002419

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Perhaps she was a Tzanser.

    #1002420

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, please explain.

    #1002421

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    The Minhag in Sanz is that the women don’t sit in the Succah. Anyhow, to better answer your question, she didn’t know better. The proof in the Gemara is from the Chachamim and the fact that they didn’t correct her.

    #1002422

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    That does work, but it’s surprising that someone who

    ?? ????? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?? ????? wouldn’t ask how to make it ???.

    #1002423

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: R’ Akiva Eiger asks about women being Pattur from Chinuch and leaves off with TZI”G, I think.

    To answer the original question, maybe the author of this Braisa held like Rashi (R”H 33a, I think) that women cannot volunteer Mitzvos Asei Shehazman Grama and that it would be Bal Tosif.

    Or maybe because she was so important that she was concerned that if she did the Mitzvah, others would think that women are Mechuyavos (similar to the answer given by many about why Tevi didn’t sit in a Sukkah in a Kosher fashion).

    #1002424

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam,

    1) He does bleib TZI”G (on the page in GH”S), but the P’nei Yehoshua does address it.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=19251&st=&pgnum=474&hilite=

    2) I’ll bl”n look for it.

    3) That’s a serious version of popa’s p’shat. Interesting. OTOH, it’s the opposite of what HaLeiVi said; you’d think she’d use a more obvious p’sul, or sit in the house altogether.

    #1002425

    Sam2
    Participant

    See also Eruvin 96a Tosfos D.H. Michal Bas Kushi who gives the same answer as I did (Bal Tosif) but rejects it (because he disagrees with Rashi’s Bal Tosif D’rabannan here) without really offering an alternative to why Hilni did it.

    #1002426

    cherrybim
    Participant

    She needed a private spot to put on her t’filin.

    #1002427

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I actually came on now to post that Tos.

    I’m not sure what you mean that they don’t say why she did it.

    #1002428

    son
    Member

    Question I’ve had for quite sometime; popa’s responses had me cracking up.

    #1002429

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    there is no one feminist movement.

    #1002430

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: According to their D’chiya of Rashi that each individual Mitzvah has a different explanation as to why a Shittah would Assur women volunteering as an Eino Metzuvah V’oseh, they don’t give an alternative explanation why a woman couldn’t volunteer Sukkah.

    #1002431

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    According to Tosafos they clearly could volunteer Sukkah. That’s the poshtus in our B’raisa, that according to R’ Yehuda, she did volunteer the mitzvah.

    #1002432

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: Right. Tosfos doesn’t give an explanation as to why according the Chachamim she didn’t/couldn’t.

    #1002433

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gotcha.

    ?????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ?? ???

    #1002434

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    done

    #1002435

    apushatayid
    Participant

    if the gemara isnt concerned with her ruchniyus, why are you. she made a decision not to perform a mitzvah she wasnt obligated in, the gemara doesnt question why, why is everyone else. the gemara is focused on her sons who do have a chiyuv, at least midirabanan, and as the rishonim and achronim discuss he chiyuv of chinuch vis a vis her sons, but as far as she is concerned, the gemara doesnt care. why does everyone else?

    #1002436

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I’m asking why the gemara doesn’t care, and if there’s something to learn from it. L’moshol, maybe it’s a shtickle raya to Rashi on nireh k’mosif.

    #1002437

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Don’t you see that the Gemara doesn’t assume she knew better? Rebbe Yehuda mentions the fact that the Chachamim didn’t correct her, which means that it is assumed that she didn’t know on her own. She was not Bruria and we are not learning from her.

    #1002438

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
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