Why do girls need to learn Sifsie Chachamim inside?

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  • #1931726
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Q-Is there a mesorah on girls chinuch? What are some Torah sources to support that?
    Q-How old is that mesorah (if there is one)?

    #1931884
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Wow! So many questions.

    And the answer is – Girls need to be educated.

    #1931916
    crackers
    Participant

    In the shtetel prewar many girls were involved in all kind of isms the antidote was educate the girls in yidishkeit. Thanks to Rebetzin Soroh Shnerir and her powerful efforts. After the war school was mandatory for all children I am sure a vaad of rabonim decided what the girls should learn. However sometimes the discussion is more about how much is necessary and is it too much.

    #1931919
    ujm
    Participant

    Before the Beis Yaakov’s started girls were educated only at home by their mothers on how to be a good Jewish wife and mother.

    #1931920
    flowers
    Participant

    Joseph

    #1931926
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    It teaches them how to understand Rashi fully and remember it.

    #1931924
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    I’m unsure how this is an answer. What I am trying to say is that there is a limited amount of time in a school day. We can either have our girls be taught meforshim like the sifsei chachamim who often explains the details of why Rashi said this or that or what was the intention of Rashi, or we can teach them the meforshei Rashi that bring out the beauty of Rashi regarding inyanei hashkafa. For example many sifrei chassidus like the sfas emes, the kedushas levi , the nesivos shalom and dozens more
    Since we only have time for either or, it seems like a mistake to address the moch as opposed to the lev.
    there is a disconnect happening in our mosdos hachinuch between what we are learning and it translating to our rigshei halev…
    your thoughts?

    #1931990

    Beruriah knew and quoted Mishna. Also, contributed to the Gemorah.

    Also, current Jewish education for both boys and girls is in large part a defense against inappropriate environment rather than learning l’shma. So, girls who might follow their lev, might need emotional education; those who will be exposed to foreign ideas, might need more intellectual learning.

    A Chassidishe Rebbe, whose name escapes me, kept his daughters in his house in 1920s Poland, not to expose them to bad ideas on the street (presumably, a Chasiddishe street). I think a very relevant idea.

    #1931999
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Always ask Questions-
    Yes Bruria was exceptional, no question about that.
    I understand the need for intellectual stimulation in the learning, Im suggesting that one can be stimulated intellectually from the lev-oriented meforshim just as much as the current meforshim being taught.
    the main effort that most bais yaakov girls make is to memorize the meforshim for tests…so why not make them memorize meforshim that bring out yesodos of yahadus instead of more informational based meforshim.

    #1932000
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer-
    is that a value for the girl to remember it? I don’t believe there is a chiyuv on women to commit Torah to memory…am i incorrect?

    #1932003
    ujm
    Participant

    I think they should teach hashkafa, home keeping, food preparation and child rearing.

    #1932004
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    As far as the fact that a vaad of Rabbonim decided on the curriculum, it may be true, however, perhaps it is time to revisit the priorities based on the unique nisyonos of this generation.

    It is my estimation that over 30 % of 8th grade girls in many many communities are watching weekly shows on either netflix,disney plus, or amazon prime video. the morals and values promoted in these shows are basically a version of the gimmel chamuros in one form or another.
    watching these types of things as well as short meaningless youtube or tiktok videos dulls the neshama and makes our children numb to the warmth of yiddishkeit. if we dont combat these influences with a fiery warmth of Torah, we are doomed to losing many many of them. when you remove the 2 yuds from chaim, you are left with cham. vhameivin yavin…
    your thoughts?

    #1932021

    so they can teach their husbands.

    #1932026

    efshar: most bais yaakov girls make is to memorize the meforshim for tests…so why not make them memorize meforshim that bring out yesodos of yahadus

    I agree with “memorizing” re: inspiration. I don’t know whether many current schools are capable of changing their approach. After all, the teachers were already taught the same way for a couple generation already. Did you try approaching your school? What was the response?

    #1932032
    ujm
    Participant

    Why do you assume that there’s a vaad of Rabbonim decided on the curriculum rather than each girls school principal or teachers dream up their own curriculum?

    #1932039
    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    Because it is important that our frum doctors and lawyers and other professionals also be offered the opportunity to become equally accomplished in limudei kodesh. Within a few years, more than 50 percent of new professional degrees will be awarded to women. That is not meant to reflect negatively on those young Jewish women who prefer to spend a year in seminary and then marry, stay at home and have a family. But although the numbers are still relatively small, they are growing rapidly both in EY and here in the U.S. Denying them the opportunity to have grown in limudei kodesh at a younger age makes no sense.

    #1932052
    rational
    Participant

    These days there is much free time, maybe too much. If the choice for our young women is between allowing them to spend this time watching the goyishe world of entertainment or teaching them Baba Basra, I vote for the latter.

    No question that the young women should be taught hashkafa , home keeping, food preparation and child rearing. With ovens, microwaves, food processors, cleaning ladies, au peres, first-class healthcare, disposable diapers and Art Scroll, that should take about a third of their time, leaving two thirds for Baba Basra.

    #1932108
    Benephraim
    Participant

    The mesora is that they did. For example. Lavan garti. Rashi says the bracha was not mekuyam bi. So Kreindele the sister of Reb Yeshaya Pick Berlin said take gevir and subtract bi and you get ger.I think she was the wife of Reb Yoseph Steinhart the Rav of Fuerth. ( Nurenberg). The Beis Yehuda chumash with jargon was used by Rebbitzen Kaplan z”l. That established the American Mesorah.

    #1932101
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The women have a responsibility to learn the written law, so they also have a responsibility to remember what they learned.

    #1932114
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    they are not approachable. many have tried to make sweeping changes. Most people who get it, try to make changes within their own classrooms. its just heartbreaking to hear students complain how much they hate Chumash or Navi. When was the last time your teen came home and told you a yesod they learned from these 2 subjects?

    #1932115
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I would say that moed maseches should precede bava basra but even there the gemara veres off to topics not applicable to women.

    #1932116
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    that would be a great place to start

    #1932117
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    I don’t. I was jut being polite…

    #1932123
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    As I don’t know you, I will make no assumptions. I want them to be challenged and to be highly educated. I was simply saying that there is a wealth of Torah in the lev department that they desperately need to know , especially if they end up as doctors and professionals. Teaching with a more haskafic focus will stand them in much greater stead when they enter the decadent professional word than making more sechel oriented information the top priority.
    I’m promoting teaching the beauty of the Torah to girls more than the informational part. Obviously they need a mix, but what should the main focus be??

    #1932125
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    🙂

    #1932127
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    You are right. The Ramban’s reason to argue on Rashi isn’t part of the halachos they need to memorize. Better off teaching them halacha more than 40 minutes a week!!

    #1932130
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Hi would you mind to clarify both your dvar Torah (maybe use Hebrew letters) and can you please explain the mesorah as you see it?

    #1932131
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    attention moderator. is there a way to attach replies to specific comments so that the thread reads in a more understandable way?
    I am new to the coffee room…

    The only option is to start your post with the name of the poster you are addressing and/or a quote you are responding to.

    #1932143
    charliehall
    Participant

    “Before the Beis Yaakov’s started girls were educated only at home”

    In Germany and the US, Jewish girls were being educated in formal Jewish settings decades before Sarah Schenirer was born.

    #1932145
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    efsharazoi, are you familiar with tbe view of tbe EIshas Sma (tbe wife of the Sma) that by yom tov you make tbe bracha before lighting candles? See Mishna Berura O’CH 263,26, many agree with her and tbe Chasam Sofer explains the mishna in tractate Shabbos 24 according to her other view that you light early on yom tov as shabbos.

    #1932146
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    There is another way, by referring to the reply number attached to each post.

    #1932160

    personal testimony:
    I once witnessed Rav Shapiro Z’L from Miami teaching a class at a summer location (admittedly, not a difficult class). Students were looking at him, while his wife was sitting at the far end of the table, reading a book that (to me) looked like a novel. At some point, Rav made a pause looking for a right word. His wife lowered the book and mouthed the word and Rav continued. Nobody noticed, of course. How did I notice? I was walking towards the table at that moment.

    #1931939
    meir G
    Participant

    efshar azoi- i will briefly respond to your last comment in the text of a ny bais yakov hs.
    1. BYHS has one primary purpose when educating a girl bizman hazeh & that is to prepare her for the next stages in her life which includes a whole lot( sem, marriage, work, life challenges)
    2. depending on what circle of yidden you live in your needs vary accordingly as an example ; if college is a given than you need better hs english , if sem is a given , you need a better handle on torah text inside.. if a job for many years is a given you need stronger hashkafa skills..
    3. as far as sifsei chachamim vs nesivos sholom.. most ny hs do much more in terms of hashkafa than sifsei chachomim the diff is that hashkafa is in the form of many lectures , speeches…yet some definitely enjoy the inside learning as if they were boys
    4. finally a girls big test is after she is married juggling , ehrliche work ,patience, kids , husband… where as a bochur needs to prove himself to be in yeshiva 3 sedorim as a bochur ( although plenty to grow as a baal habayis)

    #1932183

    efshar >> they are not approachable.
    meir >> depending on what circle of yidden you live in your needs vary

    How do we make schools address these different needs? I do not like current system where schools are ideological. Besides breaking up Am Israel, it is also impractical in all places outside NY. With some effort, it could be possible to set up extra science/English classes or add flexibility so that classes can be taken somewhere else. But my experience is, unfortunately, same as efshar’s – and that meir confirms by his “don’t worry, trust us” answer.

    #1932186
    sifsei chachamim
    Participant

    Of course girls have to learn sifsei chachamim

    #1932192

    >> sifsei chachamim HIMSELF

    hard to follow-up on that – except with the Ikar …

    But the girls may be able to learn a LOT from siftei chachamim, in no particular order: he
    wrote Masechet Derech Eretz – not about tzniyut, but about European roads and coins
    was an entrepreneur (brought printing to the East)
    married a young lady in his old age
    classified 2,200 Hebrew books
    was arrested but released for his printing, based on a University of Prague Jesuit report
    tried to improve German grammar that Jews used (sic!)
    AND, most relevant to the topic:
    suggested that German-Jewish Jews use Amsterdam Portuguese curriculum instead of whatever we were doing

    (and this is just from a Wiki)

    #1932172

    efshar azoi>> When was the last time your teen came home and told you a yesod they learned from these 2 subjects?

    yes, this is the main point and it bothered me for years, despite all prodding.

    School was obviously affecting girls in many positive ways, but at best they could do at home was criticize my wife’s “kulos”. After they stopped going to school, we now have long-winded discussions about Parsha with heated arguments. They are using what they learnt at school as a base, of course, to be fair.

    #1932355
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer
    what is the point you are trying to make?

    #1932356
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Always ask questions-
    What are you trying to say with this story?

    #1932357
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Meir said…
    2. depending on what circle of yidden you live in your needs vary accordingly as an example ; if college is a given than you need better hs english , if sem is a given , you need a better handle on torah text inside.. if a job for many years is a given you need stronger hashkafa skills..

    so if I am understanding you correctly, we are shortchanging our girls because of seminaries? it seems to be a incorrect focus from the bottom up and or the top down…

    #1932358
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    So it seems like we are in agreement regarding the ikkur being traded in for the tafel.

    #1932476
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    I wanted to demonstrate how a woman became famous by contributing to halacha in her own mitzvos and how the men try to understand her views.

    #1932507

    @efshar, R Shapiro’s story? Here is a lady that apparently knows everything her husband knows, and also knows her husband, and knows when to help him. And a husband, who knows that when in trouble, he needs to look at his wife.

    re: specific sources for girls to study.

    I am for studying “basics” – but in depth. Remind you, we had ten commandments in the service, then deleted it due to apikoirosim claiming that this is all we have. I think we went the other way – we are teaching minute details of halakha, skipping basics.
    We have disagreements here on such basic things as a need to work for a living, protect someone’s life, hillul Hashem, truth v false news. And discussions on these topics have less sources than minhagei nittel acht!

    What do you think about
    Nehoma Leibowitz, Elia Munk for Humash, relatable/modern and still traditional, with occasional digging into their sources
    Ein Yaakov – as intro to Talmudic approach, without piling up pilpul.

    #1932897
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    see hakdama to shailos uteshuvos chavas yair how he named it after his aunt chava bc
    “halcha komosa bchol makom”!!

    #1932898
    efshar azoi
    Participant

    Nehoma Leibowitz, Elia Munk for Humash, relatable/modern and still traditional, with occasional digging into their sources
    sounds fine
    in my experiance teaching , the girls love midrashim and meforshim al pi chasidus yet challenging

    #1932922
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Back to the original question why girls need to learn inside… because it’s cold outside.

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