August 26, 2018 12:34 pm at 12:34 pm #1579943
The traditional Sephardic custom was to wear a yarmulka only by davening. Today, while you still find some such Sephardim, that practice has become uncommon. Rather, even among the communities that until they left their original Sephardic/Mizrachi homelands they only wore a yarmulka during prayers, today the religious Sephardim more typically wear it all day like the traditional Ashkenazic custom.
Why did they change to the Ashkenazic custom?August 26, 2018 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1580130
What you’re claiming is completely untrue and I have no idea what you’re seeking to gain with this thread.
I have National Geographic magazines from the 1940’s that talk about the Jewish community of Morocco and mentions that they wore Yarmulkes. I don’t know of any proofs you could bring from poskim to corroborate what you’re saying.August 26, 2018 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #15801321Participant
They went to an Ashkenazi yeshiva or they became religious.August 26, 2018 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #1580134Reb EliezerParticipant
Rav Ovadyah Yosef in his Yechaveh Daas Chelek 4:1 says that wearing yarmulka is a midas chasidus according the Beis Yosef, still people should cover their head in order that it should indicate who is a religious orthodox Torah observing Jew.August 26, 2018 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #1580164akupermaParticipant
Until recently, in both the Middle East and Europe, it was the custom of males to cover their heads. Being bare headed meant you weren’t properly dressed. The halachic reasons for wearing a yarmulke only came into fashion when decently dressed goyim stopped wearing hats.August 26, 2018 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1580173
Syrian Jews customarily were bareheaded if they weren’t in the synagogue. Even today a good portion of religious SY Jews don’t customarily wear a yarmulka most of the day.August 26, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1580191
akuperma, that’s not 100% true. The custom for goyim was to cover their heads while outside and take the hats off indoors. That trend goes back at least as was as the Taz who mentions it in a Chukas HaGoyim argument in favor of head-coverings. I’ll try to find the source.August 26, 2018 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #1580195
Neville, they wore a yarmulka to shul and religious functions, but they didn’t wear it all day.August 26, 2018 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #1580199
Many, many sfardim in Israel still only wear a yarmulke when davening or making brachos.August 26, 2018 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1580213jew boy2Participant
Th purpose of wearing a Yarmulke = “yira mei eloka”…..
so if you want 2 have yiras shamayim—wear a yarmulke!!!
–there foor many people have even tried to make sure to wear a yarmulke, even at night while sleepin in bed by purchasing a shluff kappel.August 26, 2018 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1580231
Toi, before they emigrated to Israel and America it was standard to not wear a yarmulka most of the day. Even though, as you pointed out, some still practice it this way, many of them switched to the Ashkenazic minhag regarding wearing a yarmulka all day. That’s what I’m wondering — why those that switched did so.August 26, 2018 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1580286
It is not uncommon for Sefardim who are considered observant to not wear a kipa. Indeed, classically speaking,,
a lack of a kipa was not a sign of not being religious. The person could have been very pious and learned but at work, for example, they didn’t wear it. Some reasons that they DO wear a kipa are:
1.they grew up this way
2.they wish to be more stringent
3.nowadays it’s safer and easier to wear one
4.as a whole Sfaradim have been influenced by the mores of religious Ashkenazim
5.they live in a community where this is the norm.August 27, 2018 7:51 am at 7:51 am #1580338yehudayonaParticipant
Yabia Omer is the only one who got it right. Sefardim do not wear yarmulkas. They wear kipot.August 27, 2018 8:24 am at 8:24 am #1580432JosephParticipant
YY: Be so kind as to explain a difference between a yarmulka and a “kippa”. Is what the kippa sruga crowd wears something different than what the Yeshivish and Chasidish crowds wear?August 28, 2018 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1581009
“Many, many sfardim in Israel still only wear a yarmulke when davening or making brachos.”
That has nothing to do with being Sphardi and everything to do with being MO/dati leumi and you know it.August 28, 2018 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1581160anonymous JewParticipant
Joseph, here is an obvious difference. Yarmulka is a Yiddish derived term that a Sfardi would not think of using.August 28, 2018 1:14 pm at 1:14 pm #1581158Takes2-2tangoParticipant
“Many, many sfardim in Israel still only wear a yarmulke when davening or making brachos.”
That has nothing to do with being Sphardi and everything to do with being MO/dati leumi and you know it.
Your being motzee shem rah on frum yidden “and you know it”August 28, 2018 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1581116GadolhadorahParticipant
Probably not a major factor but I’ve never seen any old photos or artwork placed from North Africa or the Spanish Portuguese region riding around in Streimlach……perhaps the climate lent itself to a “cooler look”August 28, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1581036JosephParticipant
Sephardim are not into much Modern Orthodoxy or Daati Leumi. Those are by and large Ashkenazic contraptions.August 28, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1581184limnos yameinuParticipant
In a world of kafias, turbans etc… it’s hard to believe that sephardim didn’t generally wear a head covering. Maybe they didn’t consider it a Halachic necessity outside of davening but head coverings were normal. Coming to America, where the forces of tumah are infinitely greater, they needed it just like Ashkenazim, among whom some groups also did not consider wearing in the home a necessity. In fact,a few hundred years ago the same question could have been posed about Ashkenazim. Ashkenazic Jewry did a favor to all Jews by creating the kippah, a simple head covering that fits much easier into modern society.August 28, 2018 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1581022AllanParticipant
I think you are all missing the point . The Separadim always wore a head cover like the Ashkenazim. The traditional Sepahadim ( not necessarily observant) wear it occasionally out of respect befitting the situation. However there are no traditional Ashkenazim at least in North America and thus they don’t cover their head at all. It’ s one extreme or the other.August 28, 2018 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1581226
“Your being motzee shem rah on frum yidden “and you know it””
Frum Yidden cover their heads.
“Sephardim are not into much Modern Orthodoxy or Daati Leumi. Those are by and large Ashkenazic contraptions.”
Without getting into whether or not this statement is true at all, it has no relevance. Nobody said all Sephardim are MO/daati leumi; what I said is that the people going around without their heads covered are MO (at best). This is pretty indisputable and I don’t know why we’re still talking about it. The only people trying to say that real frum yidden go around with bare heads are those with an extreme left-wing agenda.August 28, 2018 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1581890
“Frum Yidden cover their heads.”
Not according to the Beit Yosef, who says it’s a middat chassidut.
In Xian lands, uncovering the head had religious significance for them. Hence the Taz says that our uncovering violates chukat hagoyim. The GRA disagrees.August 28, 2018 6:18 pm at 6:18 pm #1582424
Neville- We’re usually on the same side of issues, so I’m not sure where this struck a nerve. Certainly in Israel, and to a lesser degree in the US, a sfardi jew putting on a headcovering when entering shul, or even when just making a brachah, has nothing at all to do with MO (are you seriously going to entertain a tzad that a cab driver in Jlem has a clue who Lamm was??) nor are they dati leumi. They are frum people and this is their custom. While there may be other elements of their yiddishkeit that is also not as stringent as the norm, they are not dati light or MO, this is just them, the same way a lot of them come to davening shabbos morning in jeans and a tshirt, and it’s just how they do things.August 28, 2018 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1582472
An Ashkenazi will never understand why someone who doesn’t wear a kipa can still be religious. It’s not in their spiritual DNA to understand.August 28, 2018 9:58 pm at 9:58 pm #1582469
Ashkenazim are more likely to be either intensely religious or intensely irreligious whereas Sephardim are more likely to be neither intensely religious nor intensely irreligious.August 28, 2018 11:42 pm at 11:42 pm #1582501Daniel45Participant
First of all a custom or minhag is usually something done for a long time and instituted by a Rav or other Gadol. Not just because people became lax in observance.
Secondly if it was the minhag how come none of their Chachamim didnt go bearheaded?
The fact is that they all including Syrian Teimani Morrocan Jews wore a fez type of headcovering at home and at work,till the alliance schools came and robbed them of their religion ,and whatever yiddishkeit was left the zionists took away when they made aliya
I have in front of me the book Allepo by Chaham David Laniado with 100s of pictures of both chahamim and the regular hamon am all wearing headcoverings of some typeAugust 28, 2018 11:58 pm at 11:58 pm #1582512Daniel45Participant
As Neville correctly said they all wore some sort of head covering whether at home or at work with absolutely no exceptions. The goyim also had beards and some sort of headcovering.
Then around 100 years ago the alliance came followed by the zionists and modernized them or made them completely irreligious ,thats when they started to go bearheaded
So the word custom or minhag does not come into this.
The same way you can’t say that the custom or minhag of the teimanim is to shave and not to have beard or peyos, as we clearly see both in pictures and in real life that they all had a beard and peyosAugust 29, 2018 2:00 am at 2:00 am #1582625
“So the word custom or minhag does not come into this.”
Why were they wearing hat’s 100 years ago?
Was it Halacha, minhag, or style?
Do you have any proof as to why?August 29, 2018 8:09 am at 8:09 am #1582640
@Yabia Omer- Except I do…And that’s a pretty dumb, broad (pardon the pun) statement full of dislike for ashkenazim and not much else.August 29, 2018 9:35 am at 9:35 am #1582686
If it quacks like a duck, has a beak like a duck, call it a duck.
This is silly political correctness and nothing else. If someone goes around bearheaded and davens in jeans and a T Shirt, we all know that’s called being MO. You guys just don’t want to say it about Sphardim on account of PC culture.August 29, 2018 2:06 pm at 2:06 pm #1582908
Neville, you’re totally misreading the issue. Like, mamsh. Trust me, I’m closer to Joseph on the hashkafic spectrum, received (and hold of) the standard yeshivish hashkafas, learnt in the reg. yeshivish yeshivas, and can honestly tell you, you;re missing the boat by miles. You’re conflating ashkenazi american trends, with those crowds shifting to the left/mo, with sfardim the world over who don;t associate a tshirt on shabbos with being modern, the same way you wouldn’t wear sandals on shabbos, but the mizrachi/dati crowd does and that doesn’t make them MO, it’s just what they are. You’re off, buddy, waaaay off.August 29, 2018 2:09 pm at 2:09 pm #1583085YaakovParticipant
“Syrian Jews customarily were bareheaded if they weren’t in the synagogue. Even today a good portion of religious SY Jews don’t customarily wear a yarmulka most of the day.”
Not sure where in the world you get your information from.August 29, 2018 2:17 pm at 2:17 pm #1582902
Toi it’s nothing about dislike. Ashkenazim and Sfaradim are brothers. Period. But even the HIDA said that on an esoteric level, Ashkenazim are influenced by Midat Hadin. As such they are more likely to be extreme in their worldview.
Neville, although it is SIMILAR to MO, it’s not. MO is a recent American, Ashkenazic invention. And let’s say it is MO. Nu? So? What’s wrong with it?August 29, 2018 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #1583100
jackj123: By living in their neighborhood, working in their companies and observing them.August 29, 2018 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1583140
It’s pathetic. You guys are going to take every MO trend, and call it as it is when Ashkenazim do it, but make excuses with Sphardim do it. It’s embarrassing how much left-wing PC culture has crept it’s way into the frum world.
There are many frum Sphardim out there who probably would not appreciate you trying to say their mesorah is synonymous with Modern Orthodoxy.August 29, 2018 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #1583276
Going back to the original question, it seems that even though Rav Yoseph Caro wrote in the B”Y that a head covering is middat chassidut, in the ShA he just says to not go without. As is to say one should preferably wear a head covering.
See the Yalkut Yosef about it. Siman bet. Who says that today one should wear a kippah.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583265
There was traditionally no stratification of Judaism among Sfaradim. There’s no Haredi, Modern Orthodox, left, right, etc etc. The are all recent Ashkenazic inventions. In Spehardic culture everyone is part of the fold. There’s no “Mihutz lamahane moshavo” as it were. If you were very pious, great. If you didn’t keep Shabbat 100% you were still accepted.
It should be noted that covering one’s head is a concept discussed way back in the Gemara. It’s not a recent thing. Everyone agrees that covering one’s head is virtuous. But it’s omission doesn’t make someone irreligious.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583273
“You guys are going to take every MO trend, and call it as it is when Ashkenazim do it, but make excuses with Sphardim do it. ”
The big difference is that MO have a hashkafa for being MO. They are, generally, Bisheeta MO.
Sephardim OTOH just do what they do without any such hashkafa. Similarly, Reform is an Ashkenazi invention. When Ashkenazim do something (or not) they make a whole philosophy around it.August 29, 2018 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1583233R.T.Participant
From Yabia Omer: “…even the HIDA said that on an esoteric level, Ashkenazim are influenced by Midat Hadin”
Now that’s interesting. Is it quoted in a particular Sefer?August 30, 2018 8:35 am at 8:35 am #1583326MammeleParticipant
Not wearing a kippah/Yarmulke stems from modernization, even by Sefardim. This “minhag” is probably only about 100 years old when many came to the US. Although as others have stated, the term MO is not traditionally used by Sefardim, modernity has definitely crept in.
One way – and I’ll probably get a beating here for saying it – you can determine if a community or group is truly ״modern” (applies to all Jews, and I’m specifically not using the term MO) is by observing what percentage of their children stay Frum. If it’s only in the range of 50%, there’s no sugar-coating it.August 30, 2018 8:37 am at 8:37 am #1583376
“The big difference is that MO have a hashkafa for being MO. They are, generally, Bisheeta MO.”
That’s not a real difference l’maaseh. If they behave in a way which–today–we call “MO,” then I don’t really care what their kavana is, they’re MO. Labels are our friends. They tell us who’s kashrus can be trusted, to which shuls we can go, etc.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583506
It’s very possible that the lack of Kipa is a recent phenomenon. The question is what is it about Sfaradim that causes them to not make a big fuss about it? To still accept others without a kipa? To not judge?.
This is is exactly what the HIDA was referring to. They are overtaken by Midat Harahamim. I’ll try and find Sefer.August 30, 2018 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1583509
Neville you’re so שקוע in this need to label everything that you’re lost without it. Everything for you needs a label or category. I am envious I’m my ancestors who were so much more Pashut, simple. No complications. We think we’re so intelligent.August 30, 2018 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #1583971
“That’s not a real difference l’maaseh. If they behave in a way which–today–we call “MO,” then I don’t really care what their kavana is, …”
Thats true only on a micro level – just looking at that one action superficially. A person’s motivation and hashkafa can make a world of difference in the spiritual value of their actions right now, and where they are headed in the future.
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