April 2, 2020 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1846247
It seems every day there is another story about some mindless yidden engaging in irresponsible behavior in defiance of the directives of public health officials and reiterated by virtually all our gadolim to stay at home and NOT participate in minyanim, simchas, levayahs and just about ANY other activity other than very limited exceptions (e.g. milah, women’s mikvah, etc). While most yidden have accepted the burden, others seem to go out of their way to ignore the guidance or seek to parse the wording of a kil koreh to evade the restrictions and continue their traditional practices. What could justify this behavior since it not only risks their own health but that of their families and the entire tzbiur?April 2, 2020 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #1846388Shlomo 2323Participant
becauseApril 2, 2020 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1846391yehudayonaParticipant
Not to mention it’s a big chillul Hashem.April 2, 2020 5:02 pm at 5:02 pm #1846392yldParticipant
Shlomo, i don’t really understand your answer.April 2, 2020 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1846405JosephParticipant
GHD: Why do you assume your premise is correct? I believe there’s widespread compliance, perhaps in the area of 99% of the frum populace, with the guidelines for the terrible crisis.April 2, 2020 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1846410
Because they can?
Yup, that is a great reason to ignore the words of Reb Chaim and the other gadolim.April 2, 2020 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1846411lebidik yankelParticipant
I live in that community. Its not true. Most people – I was up and around tonight to shop for pessach necessities – are wearing facemasks. The shuls are closed and shuttered. The streets are empty. The people at the food sale asked us to return to our cars and they schlepped the groceries out to us so that people shouldn’t need to mingle. And there wasn’t a policeman in sight.
There are radicals, Yes, and they have zero faith in the national health directives, actually closer to the truth would be that they are allergic to any official statement from the govt. They have been fighting the govt. tooth and nail on a number of public issues until now, and humans don’t turn on a dime.
Of course, they are the visible ones…April 2, 2020 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #1846417Reb EliezerParticipant
It should be publicized that ignoring restrictions is a chilul Hashem.April 2, 2020 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #1846446user176Participant
When has EVERYONE ever listened? Getting 100% cooperation is reserved for the times of Mashiah.April 2, 2020 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #1846490JosephParticipant
I would posit there’s greater compliance among frum Yidden than among overall society.April 2, 2020 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #1846548
Perhaps the stories about “non-compliance” are Fake News. I think Lebedik’s point is well taken that perhaps the majority of these cases involve the same hard core rebels who routinely have made life miserable for the tzibur but in this case, the consequences may be a lot more morbific than blocking trafficApril 3, 2020 1:38 am at 1:38 am #1846600Chaim EliezerParticipant
Jews who publicly endanger the lives of themselves and others are quite simply a disgrace to the uniform.April 3, 2020 1:43 am at 1:43 am #1846595
Maryland issued an interpretive guidance that allows an exemption for religious gatherings of 10 or less people. Obviously since the Gedolim have forbidden it, to disobey would be a Chilul Hashem.April 3, 2020 6:08 am at 6:08 am #1846613MistykinsParticipant
These stories bring me such pain. It is a combination of ignorance (believing it can’t happen to you even as your neighbors fall ill) and selfishness.
Joseph- I agree that there is 99% compliance in the community. You’ve never seen Lakewood so quiet.
Eliezer- there are plenty of letters signed by doctors and rabbis saying it’s chillul HaShem, staying over and over not to visit family for Pesach, how to handle levaya and shiva, no shul/ minyan/ any other gathering. If people aren’t listening, pointing it out again won’t change them.
I wish that we could call it fake news. Unfortunately, the papers have now been posting the names and streets of each event, now including all attendees that were ticketed. I can only hope that they happen to have the same names, as I can’t imagine someone I know disregarding the law, and lashon hara means I’m better off never questioning it.April 3, 2020 8:06 am at 8:06 am #1846626
I am a proud member of the Israeli Charedi community and am extremely upset at the continuous assertions that the “Charedi Population” is not listening to the Health Ministry’s guidelines. I along with my family, neighbors and entire community have been dutifully staying in my house, as per the Ministry of Health’s rules for the past 3 weeks and as the Charedi Rav of my neighborhood (and actually any Charedi Rav I know) instructed 3 weeks ago. I do not know any of my Charedi friends who are not doing the exact same thing- with great mesiras nefesh (likely more than our secular brothers and sisters) given the larger families and often smaller places of residence, yet we are doing it- many, many 10’s of thousands of us, including those families with special needs children. I have painfully refrained from davening with a minyan for weeks and so has my son. These types of stereotyping creates animosity towards a group that does not deserve it.
If one feels the need to make a particular community look bad, please be accurate about who it is. Make it clear that a particular neighborhood or neighborhoods are not keeping to the rules. I have friends in Bnei Brak who have been keeping the rules for weeks, but YWN’s articles make it sound as if there is no such thing. It is inaccurate and disparaging to refer to the “The Charedi population…” when speaking about a small demographic within that world. According to YWN’s journalistic guidelines I recommend that instead of saying that “Charedim are not keeping the regulations”, say “White people are not keeping the regulations” They are white also, and once precision doesn’t matter, might as well, go all the way.April 3, 2020 9:25 am at 9:25 am #1846635rationalParticipant
The frum community is almost 100% compliant, only three weeks too late. Chachomim l’achar maa’seh. Where is the regret from the “no worse than winter flu” crowd? Where is the cheshbon nefesh of the”closing down the batei medrash is worse than the disease” rabbonim? I doubt we’ll see it,
Edited. Now is not the time to interject overall disdain for other Jews lifestyles into your covid 19 related comments.April 3, 2020 10:46 am at 10:46 am #1846671
Clearly, the non-compliant component of the tzibur is relatively small but the epidemiology of this virus tells us it doesn’t take more than a few carriers in a densely populated neighborhood to infect much larger numbers and thus we need nearly everyone to follow the rules. In more rural areas with considerably lower population densities, a non-compliant carrier shedding virus simply would not have the opportunity to infect ax many of his neighbors as might be the case in BB or Meah Shearim.
Again, this is NOT a unique issue to the Chareidi community as we saw with crowds on the beach persisting until early March. Also, as others have noted, after decades of disparaging anything coming of an “illegitimate’ tzionist government” and restricting their tzibur’s access to real time media information and guidance, there are probably a small fringe who are litterally unaware of the life and death consequences of the current virus outbreak”. Others may actually believe that are more at risk from missing davening from the minyan or not attending a levayah and sowing kovod ha’meis than from the virus.April 3, 2020 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1846661YeshivishrockstarParticipant
It is no worse than the winter flu death rate wise, assuming many people have it who aren’t getting tested. But it’s far more contagious, which means proportionally far more people will die.
BTW in Israel, LESS people are dying than usual, as the complete moratorium on driving ensures a near-zero accident death rate.April 3, 2020 10:59 am at 10:59 am #1846636rationalParticipant
To Accuracy and Honesty
The facts speak for themselves. You and your (educated? internet exposed?) friends have been compliant. Most others have not. Denial doesn’t change the facts. You know very well what the Gedolim said to do and what they said did not need to be done. You have internet. Read the statistics, read where people are sick and where they are not, read who died and who did not. Read who is sick and still at home infecting their households and who is not. Stop playing the persecuted. It doesn’t fly anymore. A serious cheshbon nefesh is in order, and you should be the one calling for it.April 3, 2020 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1846660
Only Hashem knows how many lives were saved by the bnei Torah squeezing out that last additional week of learning.
[You also, clearly, have no idea what’s going on the charedi world as your facts are totally off.]
One thing is for sure, your comment above certainly didn’t save lives, if anything the opposite: sinas chinum, lashon hara and bizui talmidei chachamim are devastating to Klal Yisroel’s safety, rachmana litzlan.
What you wrote will be on the internet forever and testify against you after 120. How about you make a cheshbon hanefesh? [You would have lost nothing by not writing that comment… you may have lost everything by writing it… Is that “Rational”?????]April 3, 2020 11:02 am at 11:02 am #1846669dan2Participant
I think that we now need to increase ahavas yisroel. It is clear that the ones who are not adhering to the rules NOW are a breed of their own. Every society has people who have an agenda and ‘know better’. Torah does not take bechira away and does not make the insane sane. Let us not give them the attention they are yearning but to improve ourselves, and perhaps take some actions of love. Daven for these poor souls. They think that they are healthy but they are extremely sick. Praying for someone is also an amazing way of removing hatred. After all you cannot daven for someone and hate him at the same time. Don’t worry if you are not genuine in your tefilos.’Do the actions and the feelings will follow’. Gut Shabbes and Shabbat Shalom to all my holy brothers and sistersApril 3, 2020 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1846690
Can we please restore Ahavas Yisroel by not fighting among ourselves and by not talking about others?April 3, 2020 12:58 pm at 12:58 pm #1846695
Dan2 makes some excellent points. Its strange to be making the moral equivalence of “davening with a minyan” to “partying on the beach for spring break” other than the reality that BOTH can have horrific consequences for third-parties affected by the reckless behavior.
“April 3, 2020 1:03 pm at 1:03 pm #1846699jdf007Participant
Let me give you another perspective. From coast to coast in America, on neighborhood bulletin boards, and all social media, I see people complaining that that they’re not complying. Families are going shopping like there is nothing going on at all. Kids in playgrounds where it hasn’t been taped off yet. I see it on youtube too. We still have (non-jews) who don’t believe in the threat. I’ve even seen these complaints happening in East Asia.
I say this so no one gets the mindset that its only some Jewish people giving a bad name to their complying neighbors. That is not true whatsoever at all. In actual reality, the question should be why are some people not listening and being a rebel. Not that we should be embarrassed because of our neighbors around the world who also are ignoring everything (including even some of the Governors!) are pointing us out. Also, In some countries Muslim groups have been defying their bans too.April 3, 2020 1:04 pm at 1:04 pm #1846702FrumroshyeshivaParticipant
In all innocence why is this any different than in the times of the holocaust,inquisition, etc. That we were moser nefesh with our lives to daven with minyabim and go to shul and learn Torah when the risk was the same or even more and even more so we hear that all the gedolim risked their life but suddenly over here we shouldn’t be moser nefesh for Torah and to keep Yeshiva and chadorim open?April 3, 2020 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1846716
Frumroshyeshiva, I have wondered this too. Of course I am complying because that’s what we’ve been told to do but I hope it’s OK to ask questions like this.April 3, 2020 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1846725moyo24Participant
Another reason why this is different than the Holocaust is because they were risking their own lives, here where someone gets sick and gives it to another person is risking other peoples life and even in the holocust its assur gamer to kill someone else so you can daven with a minyan and youll never hear a gadol story that a gadol killed another to fulfill his chiyuvApril 3, 2020 2:14 pm at 2:14 pm #1846723moyo24Participant
Davening with am Minyan is NOT yaharog V’al yavir therefore no one is should be davening with a minyan when its a sakana. However there is a special din by a shas hashmad brought down in the Rambam in yesodai hatorah perek hey, halacha gimmel That when the goyim are gozer something in order to destroy Judaism than every mitzva is yaharog V’al yavir which means during the holocaust there would be a chiuyv to die.
However in our present situation the goyim are not trying to kill us they are actually trying and begging to keep us alive there is definitely no din to daven with a minyan with many possible issurim.
Besides the issurim one who does daven s with a minyan shows how shallow is yidishkiet is that hes not interested in what hashem wants but rather what feels right to him.April 3, 2020 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #1846761🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
wow GH and rational – nothing is more exciting to you than having a place to vent your dislike for chareidim. And that you can’t even control yourself now is so sad. You just can’t stand that some people are so broken not to be able to daven with a minyan that they may be making bad choices, but you have no problem making your bad choices believing anything you read and spouting it here over and over on so many threads. MOVE ON!
I have not heard a single word from you about any of the other thousands of people who HAVE INTERNET but still chose to shop, go to the beach, go to parks, meet up with ships at ports loot stores, etc. Why? because you just can’t pass up an opportunity to spew your personal disdain for the love of/attachment to torah and the sheltered lifestyle (mentioned no less than 5 times, I’ve lost count)
What in the world is your issue? Are you so excited to be free from shul and shiur that you are bothered that others are missing it? (I doubt it, but why not make jump to ‘racist’ conclusions like you are)
Just cut it out. If you can’t break from your need to be condescending, go do research on the hospital administrators who are letting nurses treat people with only plastic bags to protect themselves. Put your jew-hater hats on the hook til life gets back to normal. Or maybe the mods can wake up and stop approving your garbage posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!April 3, 2020 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #1846781midwesternerParticipant
Syag: I think this thread is worthy of Shehechiyanu ! GH is actually telling people to listen to R Chaim Kanievsky and the other gedolim!!April 3, 2020 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #1846787🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
😆April 4, 2020 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #1846790
I hope this will be the end of this thread, as I am not clear why it was started, to begin with, however, I think it is important to make clear:
The Charedi world is proud of the fact that we do not react like the rest of the world and that we do not get caught up in their trends or their panic. Everything we do is filtered through Torah as taught to us by Gedolei Torah. The Charedi world was just as nervous as the rest of the world (even those without internet, by the way) when the pandemic started spreading, but instead of reacting out of fear, we turned to the Gedolei Torah for guidance. They advised us to keep the learning going, as long as possible at all levels. That was a very hard psak for us, but we did it because it was the right thing to do. While the rest of the world was panic-reacting we were following Torah, with emotional mesiras nefesh. You cannot imagine how scary it was to send our children to school every day. But we did it with simcha knowing that it was what Hashem wanted. At the very same time (FYI, 3 weeks ago- not as was claimed above as “3 weeks too late”) the Charedi Rabbanim were very firm that all the mandates of the MInistry of Health must be kept and even the yeshivas- despite their remaining open- had to be careful not to have more than 10 in a room etc. We did all of that as well. When the Gedolim paskened that it was time to close the shuls and mosdos we did so, with heavy hearts, but with the security of knowing that we handled this entire nisayon according to the dictates of Torah. We rose to the challenge, despite the challenge.
We, in the Charedi world, are proud of the way we handled this crisis. Those who did not listen to the Gedolim and persisted on keeping their shuls and mosdos open will have to answer in shamayim. However they were only a small fraction of this extremely large and wonderful population. We are confident the Olam HaCharedi has given nachas to Hashem by conducting ourselves according to His mandate, despite our personal anxieties. The response of the Charedi world al pi Torah and Gedolei Torah stands as a shining example of mi k’amcha and should serve as a zchus for Kal Yisroel and all of humanity.April 4, 2020 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #1846792The Shady CharediParticipant
@midwesterner Unfortunately, not so fast.
Everyone seems to have focused on an erroneous headline and missed the actual psak. When the question was posed to Rav Chaim shlit”a, it was asked regarding someone whom the health ministry is advising to be in self-quarantine! Read it here for yourself:
If there is a different psak from R’ Chaim that I don’t know about, then please update me.
If you’re referring to the fact that he’s said to follow the Health Ministry guidelines, well he’s been saying that from the very beginning too, including when he said to nonetheless still ensure that children remain learning.April 4, 2020 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1846875
Midwesterner: Strange times. Don’t take your expectations too far…Hope you and yours are healthy and stay that way. Hopefully, when this is over, there may be some reassessment across ALL segments of our society on how to communicate accurate and timely information on public health issues and do all we can to assure the guidance of experts is understood. There is so much skepticism of government_often for good reason) that when the time comes that we need instant 100 percent compliance with government directives we encounter these mindless moments of reckless defiance.April 5, 2020 11:28 am at 11:28 am #1847035anIsraeliYidParticipant
To those asking why this is different from Holocaust or Inquisition – my Rav gave a very good explanation. This is not a Sha’as haShmad, where we are being persecuted because of our Yiddishkeit, and where there is therefore a specific inyan to be Moser Nefesh. Here, HKB”H is the one who is effectively telling us to stay home.
We need to be mispalel on our own that this Magefa end – as David haMelech said when there was a Magefa in Klal Yisrael “Nifla Na b’Yad Hashem Ki Rabim Rachamav” – we accept our punishment from Hashem, and rely on his mercy, and are thankful that that the punishment is not from the hand of Man.
an Israeli YidApril 5, 2020 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1847244Alles is KartofolParticipant
It’s possible to be a “frumroshyeshiva” and not realize something as obvious as the difference between <i>gezeiras hashmad</i> [persecution of those who practice Judaism] and <i>mageifah</i> [epidemic or pandemic]? That would be frightening enough but to then, utterly gratutiously identify yourself as a rosh yeshiva when posting here anonymously? Sir, have you <i>no</i> shame?April 5, 2020 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #1847264
Frumroshyeshiva simply asked a question. Asking that question was not shameful. Thank you to the others that answered, very nicely, the question that he – and I – posted.April 6, 2020 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1847367YadleyadParticipant
Many points were true and understandable. But I do not understand how someone can think that you need to still do ‘the right thing and go to shul’ at a time like this. Hashem is obviously very angry at klal Yisroel, yes all of klal yisroel and we need to figure out what we did wrong (edited) yes this may be most relevant to the mainstream Americans but we are a klal and there are different areas for everyone. The point is Hashem is telling us ‘stay in your houses. No more yeshiva. No shul. No Pesach programs. No weddings. And so on.’ You need to see what life is really about and become better and he is clearly doing this by giving us backyard wedding like the good old days, Pesach sedarim that resemble prewar Europe rather than seudas achashveirosh and fathers teaching sons. There are many things we can all do to become better but it starts by realizing that we were all off track in one way or another and that we are responsible for this. Hashem wants you to be home. Enough illegal backyard minyanim. Even front porches which are socially distanced is a chillul Hashem. Don’t get me wrong- my heart is aching to hear a krias hatorah but we need to chap that Hashem put us here to teach us something. If you disagree, come right at me.April 7, 2020 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1848019Alles is KartofolParticipant
What is shameful is such appalling ignorance on the part of a /rosh yeshiva/. Now, I strongly suspect — and /hope/– that the poster-in-question does not actually hold such a position. But if that is the case, then why choose such a screen name– one that can so easily mislead others? And if he /is/, in fact, a rosh yeshiva, then he should have been ashamed to identify himself as such.April 7, 2020 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #1848095
It’s not ignorance. He was asking an excellent question. I would be happy to have him as my children’s Rosh HaYeshiva. This website needs have comments turned off, or at least make it a requirement to have people identify themselves by name so that we only say things that we would say to the other person face face.
Barry GrahamApril 8, 2020 1:32 am at 1:32 am #1848225Doing my bestParticipant
First of all, to answer FrumRoshYeshivas question: In WW2 and the Inquisition it was shas hashmaad. Unless you are a serious conspiracy theorist i don’t think the rules against gatherings were designed by the CDC specifically to stop minyanim.
additionally, in those cases it was yechidim giving up their own lives, that we call moser nefesh. In our cases it’s yechidim giving up other peoples lives, that’s called a (safek) murderer.
(and i don’t believe you to actually be a standard rosh yeshiva)
In response to the original topic I’d like to suggest the following.
The jews who are violating the stay home orders can be broken up into 2 groups, 1) those without internet and don’t really have a grasp on how many niftarim there have been (obviously 99.88% of those without internet are following instructions) and 2) those who don’t have trust in authority and aren’t thinking clearly.
Both of these groups, if they would realize what they are doing would immediately stop.
The majority Non-Jews who aren’t following the instructions hwever, to my belief simply don’t care. That is the difference between us and them.
Disclaimer- I don’t believe that lack of internet is a bad thing, but this is a side-effect of it.
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