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It annoys me to no end. I’m not talking small, occasional errors here and there, but consistantly and seemingly davka changing mill’el words for mill’ra and vice versa. It seems to be prevalent with some chassidim and they appear to be dead against dikduk with a vengeance. My baal koreh this morning practically did not get a single word correct. Any clues, learned posters, why they do this?
Supposedly the chasidim davka do this because of the maskilim
When I lein, I try to make the words as short as possible, and swallow the long words and syllables, because I don’t want to be talking during leining, and want it to be as little as possible.
perhaps it is either because they dont know the transalation or because it fits in with the nigun?
The problem is that most people are ignorant in the rules of Dikduk. It is said in the name of the Vilna Gaon ZT”L that unless one is knowledgeable in music composition and music theory, one can not lain properly.
Shticky Guy: your usage of the words “baal koreh” is incorrect as well. it is ??? ????.
You see mistakes in Dikduk in the Siddur as well. Take for example the words ????”? ???? ?????? ??. The word ?????? is wrong. The proper word is ???????. Being that the word preceding and following it is ???? ????, so to should that word be in ???? ???? and not ???? ???. There are many more examples to choose from.
1) you think they do it b’dvaka? they couldn’t do that if they wanted to.
Those you refer to who get almost every word wrong have no feeling for it.
2) the use of “baal koreh” certainly is correct. it is used in gemorroh kidushin.
other terms may be correct also. but I have never heard the term baal makre. (how do you enter hebrew characters?
3) RE: ????”? ???? ?????? ??
(I cut and pasted that)
do you ever recite t’helos?
“how do you enter hebrew characters?”
Moderator 42: Supposedly the chasidim davka do this because of the maskilim.
That is also the reason they do not learn ?”?. My husband told me they don’t learn the ??”? as well. In the Tochacha in ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??? ?????. Rashi says “The same way you came without sin, so should it be with your departure. The ??”? says from here it is a ????? those who hold of the existence of Gilgulim.
nitpicker:
The use of “baal koreh” certainly is correct. it is used in gemorroh kidushin.
The fact that the ???? uses it doesn’t make it correct. The ???? in ??? ???? also uses the word ????? when discussing who composed which ?????. That to is incorrect. The proper word is ??????. The Malbim wanted to have it changed to its correct term, but the Gedolim argued that even though he was right, being that the ???? uses it as well as Yiddin, leave it as is.
I think a lot of Chassidim know the truth about the Leining. I know that in my Shul the person who leins is a ??? in Dikduk, and every year for ???? ???? and ????? ???? they pack our Shul so that they can be yotzeh the Mitzvah.
Because they want S’char for being Mevaser when they are publicly embarrassed. It’s a problem. I feel like many Shuls are just not Yotzei Leining ever.
Perhaps they “Davka” mispronounce words because they never learned proper pronunciation.
nitpicker
RE: ????”? ???? ?????? ??
(I cut and pasted that)
do you ever recite t’helos?
Yes! Whenever the occasion arises such as Luluv, etc. Did you ever hear of the phrase ???? ?????? ????? There is a two volume Sefer put out years ago by a Chasidishe Yid from Willy B. entitled “????? ??????”. It goes through the entire Tefillos as well as Birchas HaMozon and much more. It shows you together with Dikduk and Meforshim the proper way to daven!
nitpicker:
I assume your name is a translation of ??????
1) What about people who pronounce the sheim ah-dee-NOY? I’m sure they know what a ???? looks like. They pronounce every other cholom as ???. It has to be davka. Ditto for “????? ?????? ???? ???” which is just plain blasphemous.
2) And in Bava Kama. So what, it’s talking about a different job. When I lein, I’m a baal kria. When I build the sukka I’m a baal Koreh.
3) Yep, and when I talk about dead Rebbes I say ????? ??? ?????
“Taryag” is lashon nikeivah?
what bugs me is guys that have no shaychus to dikduk and daven for the amud. i heard a guy starting chazars hashatz saying avoseiNU.drove me nuts.
To all you critical people out there, read the Midrash on Shir Hashirim 2:4 –
??? ?’ ???: ?? ???? ????? ????? ????, ????: ?????, ??????. ??? ????? ???? ???: ??????? ??? ????. ??? ?’ ?????: ????? ????? ??????? ??????, ???????? ???????, ???????? ???????. ??? ????? ???? ???: ???????? ??? ????
What ya Teina:famous medrash. However remember that works for amei ha’aretz and tinokos.
weirder mentsh (come on why couldn’t there be an h in midwesterner) – I hear but I still think the point of the Midrash is chill out a bit on the dikduk critiquing.
Toi: The paragraph of Mechalkel Chayim hurts me to listen to sometimes. I have heard people that barely get a single word right in that paragraph. And An’im Zemiros must have been written by a Chossid because it is basically impossible to get every word there right.
yitayningwut: We aren’t critiquing amaratzim and tinokos. We’re critiquing baalei kria and baalei tefilla.
Toi: Your sarcasm is well-taken but we’re talking about things that actually change the meaning. Yiskatel v’yiskadesh is almost birkas Hasheim d’oraisa.
I heard that Rav Chaim Kanievsky said about the Rashash that it can’t be that he wrote that, and it must be that someone stuck it in. (By the way, the Diuk is by no means a Kasha on Gilgul.)
Sam2:Reb Yehuda Hachasid is known for writing it.
The An’im Zemiros line was meant as a joke but the irony is noted.
Sam4321: Yep, chassidei Ashkenaz. Nisht inzere chassidim. 🙂
Sam2: Definitely. “mekalkel chayim v’chesed” or “um’kayem emunasoi lshney afar”?
Itche: Just everything. Mil’eils and vowels both.
I’ve given up on expecting them to do it right. Now I just cringe when I hear things like the above.
“Disrupts life and kindnes”
“Keeps his faith with two dirts”
C’mon!
ayc, thanks for posting the link to a previous thread on this topic. While lack of proper pronunciation in words does bother me to some extent, it’s not such a problem. It becomes a real problem when the meaning of the word is changed or lost because of incorrect pronunciation. (Such as the example I wrote about in that thread: “V’zaro mevakaish lachem”. It should be pronounced LAchem, not laCHEM, because that would change the meaning of the word.)
MP: Right on with that one. Same with Kodesh Hi LaCHEM in the Z’miros.
My biggest peeve with Ba’alei Kriah is Paro’s name. Pa-ro means “his bull”. Par-oh is a name meaning Pharaoh. According to the way most people Lein, Moshe Rabbeinu has a talking bull.
I always thought “anim zemiros vishirim eherog” was a reference to the chazzans singing talents, now I see it might be a reference to his pronunciation.
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