October 12, 2010 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #592605
I’m trying to comprehend where this comes from. I know of girls who have done it to their husbands. Why do many girls innapropriately feel like its their job to be Mashgiach, especially when married to a frum Kollel guy who knows exactly what he’s supposed to be doing AND DOES IT?!October 12, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #701873arcParticipant
it’s currently an epidemic. I think it comes from seminaries and girls thinking that a guy has to learn every second.October 12, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #701874myfriendMember
You’re right. She needs to be put in her place.October 12, 2010 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #701875SJSinNYCMember
Because we are taught this in school.
Our teachers emphasize “chochmas noshim” and say that men often need prodding and its a womans responsibility to ensure her husband davens/learns etc.
So, training basically LOL.October 12, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #701876WolfishMusingsParticipant
My #1 rule: Don’t get involved with other couples’ marital relationships. If it works for them, great. If not, they’ll work it out.
The WolfOctober 12, 2010 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #701877
They are taking ????? literallyOctober 12, 2010 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #701878
LOL.October 12, 2010 5:05 pm at 5:05 pm #701879SacrilegeMember
“Because we are taught this in school”
I went to a ridiculously greasy BY and although they pushed Kollel like crazy they did constantly reiterate,
“You aren’t your husband’s Mashgiach you are his wife.”October 12, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #701880frumeyidParticipant
????? ??”? (??”? ?????? ??? ? ???? ??) “??? ????? – ??? ???, ?? ??? ????? ?????October 12, 2010 5:17 pm at 5:17 pm #701882
How is everyone so familiar with the interaction between other couples? Maybe I’m just an old timer compared to todays newlyweds and am just out of touch. Can you give an example how a newlywed wife is a mashgiach to her husband?October 12, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #701883theprof1Participant
Very potentially problematic. The seminaries are training girls to become holier than thou personalties. No yeshiva bochur wants that. Ezer kenegdo as a life-partner and the idea of chochmas noshim bonso beisom does not mean becoming a de facto mashgiach. If a girl saw that the guy looks ernst and responsible and the info she received was that he really is a good bochur, there’s no need nor reason to become his mashgiach. And if she sees a real need for it, then they have issues anyway and it won’t turn out very good. Chazal tell us that the reason that women are zoche to olam haboh is because they allow their husbands to learn. Chazal don’t say because they prod them to learn.October 12, 2010 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #701884jewish sourceParticipant
All a husbands issues has to do with himself do what you need to and your wife will be goodOctober 12, 2010 5:31 pm at 5:31 pm #701885
js: usually the problem is an overzealous wife.October 12, 2010 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #701886RSRHMember
Wow, I’m at a bit of a loss for how to respond to a question like that. I will dig deep to try and come up with some minimal response, however.
First, the question assumes that it is not the proper role of a woman (or a man for that matter) to look to the conduct of her (his) spouse. I’m not really sure where such an absurd notion comes from. What else is a spouse’s role if not to look after the betterment of their better half? What should a spouse be doing other than giving of them-self in order to help the other improve and really maximize on his/her potential? Would the OP suggest that a wife’s proper role is to stay at home, cook dinner, and work all day so that her husband can idle his time away in kollel? I am not suggesting that time spent in kollel is idle, but if a wife cann’t properly influence her husband’s conduct, what’s to stop his “learning” time from being nothing but pure batalah?
I will take a leap and assume the OP was not suggesting that “ezer k’negdo” and the numerous other examples in tanach and shas of wives serving as the moral-ethical compass of their husbands and families, not to mention pure reason, mean nothing. I will assume that the OP thinks a wife does have *some* role in supporting her husband’s development. If so, it would seem that the OP is suggesting that in the modern yeshiva-centered world, the wife must take a backseat in favor of the mashgiach being a man’s sole moral compass.
There are numerous consequential reasons why this should not be so: A mashgiach cannot possibly know a man’s true nature as well as his wife; the support, direction, and admonition of a removed mashgiach cannot possibly be as effective as that of ones most intimate partner and friend. More important than these reasons however is that the claim is just plain wrong on a normative level. What gives a mashgiach a monopoly on direction? Wouldn’t we all have to admit that good direction and advice of a stranger is properly warranted (“hocheiach tochiach”)? Indeed, I would not be surprised if the OP himself is one of the CR posters often advocating the admonition of women dressed in an untznius manner. What gives anyone the right to give advice or direction to anyone? Shouldn’t that person’s own rav/mashgiach have a monopoly on giving such advice? Clearly not, as is the halachah. If so, should a man’s wife be in any worse a position in this respect than a stranger off the street?
What matters is the content of the direction or advice, not its source. A mashgiach giving poor or erroneous advice (yes, it can happen)should be ignored, and a wife giving good advice ought to be revered above all else.
Perhaps the man in question should spend more time learning so as to establish a basis for determining what advice is good and what is bad (and by default, he will likely have less need for such advice) and less time choosing what advice to listen to based on its source instead of its content.October 12, 2010 5:38 pm at 5:38 pm #701887
Example of this overzealousness?October 12, 2010 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #701888myfriendMember
Being the Mashgiach, and setting the hashkofic direction of the home, is the role of the husband.October 12, 2010 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #701889
There are women who get involved with their husbands davening schedules and say idiotic things like “look its ____ time dont you have to go daven mincha, or maariv or learn…”
Doesnt this brain surgeon of a wife know that there are 100’s of minyanim and as a bachur he never missed minyan or seder and that wont change now? Dont you think he knows when they daven or when he has to learn? Do these girls think he deposited his brain at the door when he decided to get married and now needs her to remind him of obvious things? Im sure for many men it feels that way!
Next time she takes a cup of water he should say “remember make a brocha” you should make a shehakol….id like to see her reaction!
To be clear Im not talking about a case where the husband got really busy with something and mamash almost forgot to go daven if not for the wife.October 12, 2010 6:14 pm at 6:14 pm #701890
Sacrilege; wow! they have greasy BYs? but at least they
got that point right.
EDITEDOctober 12, 2010 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #701891
theprof1; I just saw ur post, you get it!October 12, 2010 6:48 pm at 6:48 pm #701892
“look its ____ time dont you have to go daven mincha, or maariv or learn…”
I’m not a newlywed, nor am I a woman, however, I have taken the liberty of putting myself in the shoes of the new aishes chayil married to “a frum Kollel guy” and would like to suggest as follows.
Brand new aishes chayil believes with all her heart that she is married to the next gadol biyisroel, she shleps an hour each way to her job and/or her parents are busting themselves and all are expending their every ounce of energy to ensure he can learn torah and grow into that future gadol biyisroel. She makes sure to leave for work in the morning after a delicious breakfast, something for lunch and even preparations for supper are done so that her future gadol biyisroel will not go hungry and will enjoy three balanced meals a day on his schedule, so that he will make it back to night seder on time, on a full stomache. this while juggling the shopping, housecleaning, laundry and other daily things necessary for the smooth running of a household (fast foward 5 months, imagine she is doing all this while 3 months pregnant). Does she not have every right to make sure she is busting her tuchas every day for someone who not only wants to “make davening” but be there on time ready for the beginning of davening? For the beginning of seder and not saunter in 5 minutes after seder started? She doesnt know what he does while he is in shul, or how he spends his sedarim, but if she sees that he might not be as anxious as she is to be there BEFORE davening starts (hey, anyone can come running in just as the chazen says vehu rachum, or shir hamaalos or whatever it is they daven, but it doesnt pas for the next gadol biyisroel, and certainly not for her gadol biyisroel) she might begin to think that perhaps she is not married to a future gadol biyisroel, just a plain old ehrlicher yid, which is not what she signed up for. How many of these “frum Kollel guys” who are supposedly being driven crazy by their wives, ever said to themselves “I see making it to davening on time is important to her, perhaps I’ll leave a few minutes earlier”, how many every used the seichel and slipped in during the day, if you need that errand done, keep in mind I must be done with enough time to make to at 6 for mincha, this way, she knows the time for mincha is on your mind and wont have to constantly remind you? Did anyone ask “why” do they keep mentioning when davening is? Is it possible that they are trying NOT to say, why are you always running in at the last minute, or worse, always getting there late, while I am working really hard at what appears to be an illusion?
Did any of these guys, ever ask their mashgiach in yeshiva for the appropriate response to these comments by their wives, or why they may be making them?October 12, 2010 7:10 pm at 7:10 pm #701893
??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??? ???? ?????? ???????? ?? ???? ??? ????. (??? ??????? ?????? ?????? ????, ??????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????, ???? ???????? ??????? ?????? ???? ?????, ????? ????? ?????.)
Even though it does not say bringing their Husbands to BH”M it say ???????? its says ???????? =???????October 12, 2010 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #701894
Shloimies Shver; there’s reminding, politely suggesting, and then there’s commanding & demanding. we’re talking about the last two.October 12, 2010 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #701895
WHAT TO EXPECT OF YOUR HUSBAND
Please note: You are not going to marry Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz. You are going to marry a guy. He may be a Kollel guy, but a guy nonetheless. 22, 23 years old guys are not finished products. He will not talk, walk, think, or behave like Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz. He may come late to shachris. That is not a sign that he is “not cut out for Kollel”, nor is it a sign that he is a “faker”. Your Kollel husband may be a struggling human being just like you or anybody else. The Shiva yipol tzdik v’kam principal will apply to him to. Your job is to give this raw diamond the encouragement, support, and help him grow into the great person that he can be.
You are not his Mashgiach. You are his helper. There is no third role. It’s either “ezer” – a helper, or “kenegdo” – an opponent. You are one or the other. Guys need wives to help them grow, to get them through their struggles, to pick them up when they fall, to encourage them and believe in them. Not to be their mothers or mashgichim or supervisors.
If every yeshiva guy that came late to davening, or shmoozed with his chavrusa now and then in the middle of seder, or wasn’t the biggest masmid in the world was made to leave Yeshiva, you would have many of today’s Roshei Yeshiva, Rabbanim, Rebbeim, and Talmidei Chachamim, doing computers or something. You cannot predict the final outcome of a person based on a minute-to-minute assessment of how precise he is about being where hes supposed to be on time or the length of time he spends in Yeshiva without going to the coffee room.
There are other yardsticks, which are much more meaningful when judging the odds of a young man becoming great. These go more in the direction of the intensity of his thirst for learning, his desire to become great, his valuing of greatness and his commitment to pursue it. His values and dreams and desires are, at that point in his life, more telling than his attendance records.
Girls tend to assess their husbands in terms of discipline; the husbands assess themselves based on their growth, which may or may not be proportionate to their discipline.
And the husbands were taught all their life to assess themselves like that, because that is how their Rebbeim assessed them – in terms of potential and commitment and desire.
The goal of a Kolel man is to grow and become the biggest Talmid Chacham he can. Often, husbands and wives are not on the same page regarding what is considered vital to that endeavor, at least while someone is in his growing stages.
Girls often think that (a) their husbands are already complete products when they are just married and (b) they assess their husband’s value as a Ben Torah by their discipline, which is just one small ingredient in the recipe.
The first thing to know is, you are not marrying Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz. The second thing is, even Rebitzen Shmuelevitz didn’t marry Reb Chaim Shmuelevitz. It takes many many years to become R. Chaim Shmuelevitz. He struggled too. We all do.
Rav Hutner’s letter describing how it is sad that we don’t realize how much our Gedolim struggled to become Gedolim, and in how many battles the Yetzer Horah defeated the Chofetz chaim, for instance, before he became the Chofetz Chaim, also applies to young men in Kollel. Or, more accurately, young guys in Kollel.
One of the reasons for this disconnect between the girls’ ideas of what Bnei Torah should be versus the Bnei Torahs’ ideas, is that girls go to school where they have role models, and they tend to think that the boys’ role models are kind of male versions of their own. So for instance, they figure they know of a big rebitzen, and they figure a Rosh Yeshiva is a male version of their rebitzens. But it’s not so. The Rebitzen, no matter how old and wise and talented she is, received her formal Judaic training in high school and a year or 2 of seminary. Full time education for women does not go beyond that. And that is altogether not a problem – women have the responsibility of raising a family and learning is not their full time job. Fine. But we must understand that creating a role model for Yeshiva guys — a Rosh Yeshiva — takes years and years and years of hard work, in Yeshiva, going to Shiurim, learning b’chavrusa, full time, and more.
So when a girl is married to a guy with a few years Bais Medrash experience under his belt, she sometimes thinks that he’s already supposed to be a big role model, like her rebitzens. But it doesn’t work that way. The trajectory that guys follow to greatness is sooooo different than that of girls. And if you want to be able to understand where your guy is coming from, you need to know his path to growth.
Guys use completely different benchmarks of success and growth than girls do. And if you’re using a girls standards on a guy, its like measuring a liquid in inches or distance by the pound. Sadly so many guys are being labeled as “fakers” or “not cut out for learning” by their wives simply because they did not know how to assess what it takes to be “cut out for learning”.October 12, 2010 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #701896mybatMember
My husbands my mashgiach, hehe… But i don’t mind!October 12, 2010 7:35 pm at 7:35 pm #701897
Bein Hasdorim You are right ??????? is what you suggestOctober 12, 2010 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #701898
“there’s reminding, politely suggesting, and then there’s commanding & demanding. we’re talking about the last two.”
I suspect that she believes her words fall into the first 2 categories while he believes they fall into the last 2. Seems to me there is a breakdown in communication, which if allowed to fester beyond the newlywed stage will be quite problematic.October 12, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #701899
Kasha – excellent, excellent, excellent and so true. A woman makes an environment for growth – but God help her if she tries to force it! It’s like trying to force a plant to grow.October 12, 2010 8:05 pm at 8:05 pm #701900
Excellent points, but, that may be true of your average guy. This aishes chayil here didnt marry just any guy. She married the next Rosh Yeshiva, her parents hocked their financial future to guarantee support for the best guy in the yeshiva and she is busting her tuchas, not for a guy, who is in the growth stage, for that they could have had anyone, they went all out for the next Rosh Yeshiva.October 12, 2010 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #701901
apy, EVERY single future R”Y was in (and in fact remained in) a “growth stage”. And NO 22, 23 year old is a finished product.October 12, 2010 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #701902
When he works and she works and / or manages the house, they are 50/50 partners.
When she works and he’s in kollel (and does zip towards house / child help, SHE OWNS HIM, lock, stock and barrel. So yes, she had the right to boss him around.
He should be grateful she does’nt take away the car keys.October 12, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #701903OfcourseMember
They bring in the grester percentage of income, so they feel they ought to wear the pants. Also “keeping up with Weisses”, aka competition, whose husband is the bigger Masmid.October 12, 2010 8:15 pm at 8:15 pm #701904shtusimParticipant
apushta yid said it best SHE IS UPSET, because SHE GETS UP EARLY TO GO TO WORK, and you’re STILL IN BED, because THERE IS A LATER MINYAN.
SHE IS SACRIFICING FOR YOU, HAVE SOME RESPECT FOR HER.October 12, 2010 8:16 pm at 8:16 pm #701905squeakParticipant
This aishes chayil here didnt marry just any guy. She married the next Rosh Yeshiva, her parents hocked their financial future to guarantee support for the best guy in the yeshiva and she is busting her tuchas, not for a guy, who is in the growth stage, for that they could have had anyone, they went all out for the next Rosh Yeshiva.
There is so much wrong with that. I did not miss your sarcasm, but perhaps you inadvertantly arrived at the crux of the issue.
If the girl married someone even for his “potential” to be the gadol hador, even if she allows 35 years for him to get there, it is a recipe for disaster. Even if the goal is 35 years off, there are definitely going to be progress checks.
There is only one way it can work. That is if the girl married, and busts her kishkes for, the man she married – for the sake of what he is learning and accomplishing RIGHT NOW. Not for what he is doing now as a stepping stone to some goal. Not for what he may be after X years in learning. Now, and only now. This way, if he eventually leaves kollel it is not a failure. If at any point she is not satisfied with what he is doing RIGHT NOW there is a problem.October 12, 2010 8:18 pm at 8:18 pm #701906
BPT, to take that baloney to its logical conclusion, you obviously maintain that if he works and she’s at home HE OWNS HER lock, stock and barrel, and yes, he has the right to boss her around. And she should be grateful if he allows her out of the house more than once a month.October 12, 2010 8:25 pm at 8:25 pm #701907
HaRav Avigdor Miller zt”l, in “Awake My Glory”:
There cannot be two kings. The marriage relationship is two-fold. 1) The wife is submissive. This is not only Jewish but natural. There can be no harmony when there are two commanders. Without this indispensable condition, the home is disordered. “Arrogance is unbecoming a woman” – Megillah 14B. For a man it is not an ornament, but for a woman it is as if she wore a mustache. 2) The second, but equally essential foundation: a man must always demonstrate respect for his wife. This is “the way of Jewish men that… honor and support their wives in truth” as stated in the Jewish marriage contract. “He honors her more than his own body” – Yevamos 62B, Bava Metzia 59A. He is the captain, but she is the First Mate whose counsel is respected. She cannot be made a doormat, she need not beg for money, she deserves some assistance in the house chores, and the husband sides with her against his kin. He must express frequent appreciation and give words of encouragement, and he should remember his wife from time to time with gifts, big or little. Husband and wife should always say “Please” and “Thank You” and never forget to be always polite to each other.October 12, 2010 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #701908
No, So Right, you did’nt read what I wrote. If she and he works, they are partners.
But you are right techicaly. If she does nothing in the house (which is rare to find in any torah home) then yes, she should have zero expectations of any rights to be boss.
But sadly, the case today for the most part is, she works, he does zip to help, so yes, SHE IS THE BOSS.
If he wants his rights, let him earn them.October 12, 2010 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #701909
BPT, I said if he works and shes at home, as many many households, your logic is that HE IS THE BOSS.
When he is in Kollel, he is doing a lot more than her, BTW.October 12, 2010 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #701910
A wife should be submissive. Not IF “this” or “that” is the situation. But in all circumstances. See above.October 12, 2010 9:08 pm at 9:08 pm #701911
I’m actually tired, and would prefer just to write smug sarcastic remarks. But instead I’m going to have to write something intelligent. On your chesbon!!!
If he’s doing zilch, of course the natural balance of a home is messed up.
If he’s an intelligent Ben torah learning 10-12 hours a day, friday, shabbos and motzeh shabbos – zman and ben hazmanim has clear goals and clear accomplishments, is respected by Rebbeim and peers alike – and does his share around the house and more, and is there for his wife when she needs him (and when she doesn’t) – then even if she is the primary earner, he is the point and goal of the household. And the leader. Even if he has bad days, or discouragement. He doesn’t have to be perfect. But he needs to work -either in the office or in the beis medrash.
A guy who’s not “just learning” without review, or goals , something different every zman – but a guy who’s working to finish shas, or nashim nezikin b’iyun or yorah yorah /yadin yadin – or all of the above (Ashrey Ayin rasa zos…).
And for such a Ben torah, a Masgiach over him would be destructive. A supportive wife will make a comfortable place where he can lick his wounds and get back him gitgo again.
If he is a person that works on his himself, and tries to move forward, and leads their home forward – then he will have earned her respect and toil, and will be the man of the house.
If he’s a lazy bum, then yeah, that’s kind of sad, and everything you write is true; I’m trying to point out that merely because he is in Kollel doesn’t mean he can’t be the koach in the home. A unambitious potwasher married to a lawyer would be in the same boat.
Both should should start color coordinating their tights.October 12, 2010 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #701912
Thank you Shtusim. You managed to wade through my sarcasm and catch the point I was making.
I am willing to bet that the female mashgichim some are so concerned about, are not found in homes where the husband shows some appreciation for the fact that his wife wakes up earlier than he does, sometimes by as much as an hour, has to shelp to work, sometimes an hour each way, maintain the apartment, do the cooking, laundry and possibly the shopping all during the time she is not at work. Compounding this is that the percentages say that she is in the early stages of pregnancy (imagine a new baby had to be juggles on top of all this!) fighting nausea and fatigue. Added to this is the fact that the two of them are still working on their own relationship while she is adjusting to something she is not accustomed to. A little empathy from the men would go a long way.October 12, 2010 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #701913
Not al all, So right. (gosh, didn’t you read the whole post?)
Ok, I’ll re-post it:
and she works and / or manages the house, they are 50/50 partners.
I don’t mind being slammed for something dumb I say, but please, take the time to read what I said before lashing into me. If she runs the house, that’s called work. And more often than not, she is also working, so if anything, her share of the partnership, should be more like 75%, becuase she is doing TWO jobs (earning and running the house).
What does he do towards the running of the house / earning what is takes to run the house?
And Moq –
Not for one minute, do I think we are talking about someone that you describe (in great detail, I might add, which leads me to believe that you are / trying to become just such a type of Ben Torah).
No, I think the “mashgiach-wife” is waking up to the sad reality that her “best-bocher” cannot hold a candle to the sweat and toil that she has, to date, plowed into becoming an akeres habayis.
Will he eventualy pull his weight? Most likley. In the meantime, does she have the right to be miffed about his willy-nilly attitude?
I think so.
(and by you comment about being tired, does that mean you’re on the other side of the Atlantic? If so, leig zich shluffen, gezinteh heit!)October 12, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #701914
So Tatteh, looks like we are in agreement, merely speaking about different avrechim with different masgichim.
One torments her 12 hour husband for 14, or begrudges him a sleepy day during ben hazmanim after an intense zman.
Those are the scary ones. That will destroy him – and their shalom bayis, to boot.
One would like to see him awake. Yeah, I see where they are coming from there.
But I think it’s important for the most fiery kollel to realize that their husband can have a difficult zman, and her subtle disapproval will break down, and subtle encouragement will build him up (pancakes! nothing does shachris better then pancakes! of course, by 10am they are cold & soggy…)October 13, 2010 12:47 am at 12:47 am #701915
Nothing does more to destroy shalom bayis than taking your spuse for granted. Rubbing their nose in it, is that much worse. Rough zman? Relaxing during bein hazmanim? That’s wonderful, remember, she also had a rough “zman” that doesn’t come with a bein hazmanim (unless she is lucky enough to work for a yid who is closed chol hamoed) AND is busy preparing for yom tov, while you grap an extra hour of sleep to catch the 9am chodesh nissan special.October 13, 2010 12:51 am at 12:51 am #701916lkwdfellowMember
BP Totty – I think both husband & wife need to give it their 100%. Whatever they both do, work, learn, child-rearing, housework, etc. – it needs to be done 100%. They need to put their full kochos into whatever they’re doing.October 13, 2010 12:52 am at 12:52 am #701917Josh31Participant
In some cases I suspect the new wife is holding him to the same standards of Hasmodah (diligence in learning) and zeal in Avodas HaShem that he was “marketed” to have.
In other cases he is being held to the same standards of perfection that she and her high school classmates were held to.October 13, 2010 1:05 am at 1:05 am #701918liddleyiddleMember
I’m not entirely sure why it happens, but it’s definitely a problem, this Mashgiach Crisis.October 13, 2010 1:30 am at 1:30 am #701919Josh31Participant
For some of the more right wing male posters here I am actually hoping they find real rich Shidduchin with a father in law guaranteeing support for 10 years such that neither the Kollel guy nor his wife need to work. This way each right wing poster can have his full time personal Mashgiach for 10 years!!!October 13, 2010 1:47 am at 1:47 am #701920frumladygitMember
A wife need not be newly wed to do this. I am married for longer than Newly and I am still doing this, to my utmost regret, unfortunately. I think its because women think they are smarter and anyways even if we’re not we enjoy arguing.
But seriously now, speaking for myself at least I can say that people can make mistakes and husbands aren’t perfect.
Every girl /women/wife needs to read the book “Women’s Wisdom” by Rav Shalom Arush. Has changed my attitude.October 13, 2010 5:29 am at 5:29 am #701925kapustaParticipant
A great way to make a mountain out of a molehill. How about let each couple work things out on their own instead of following some list of rules made by anonymous people? A crisis? I think not.
I agree with APY.October 13, 2010 10:21 am at 10:21 am #701926shlomozalmanMember
What I see here is a business deal where each side didn’t know what “product” they were buying.
This crisis would be averted if the young couple would go out on many more dates and get to know each other better before they wrap up the deal.
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