January 21, 2014 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #611924RR44Participant
Why does R’ yoichanan need a possuk for chatzi shi’ur? Doesn’t he know it from a sevara???January 21, 2014 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #999416popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Hey, the CR is on daf 59 today. You can wait a few weeks and then post, or not at all!January 21, 2014 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #999417Todros GimpelParticipant
Why should the Shi’ur be only for the Onesh not for the Issur itself?January 21, 2014 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #999418
The Ritva says the svarah of chazi litztarufai, is the reason the Torah asssered chatzi shiur ( taima d’krah)…. however the issur is learned out from the possuk
The Achiezer learns there are 2 dinim. FROM THE POSSUK OF KOL CHAILEV WE WOULD KNOW THAT THERE IS AN ISSUR…. but not an issur of chailev or nevailah.A stam issur. The svarah of chazi litztarufai tells me that the issur is chailev or nevaila Ayin shum for the nafka mina. ( sorry for the typing, my sec. left early CAUSE OF THE SNOW)January 22, 2014 3:48 am at 3:48 am #999419☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
The sevara of chazi l’itztarufei doesn’t tell us that there must be an issur. It explains the issur, once we know the issur from the passuk.
Popa, time to catch up.January 22, 2014 6:25 pm at 6:25 pm #999420apushatayidParticipant
Maybe he agrees that the svara of Reish Lakish is also a good one and it is the passuk that tips the scales that it is in fact assur.January 22, 2014 7:19 pm at 7:19 pm #999421Little FroggieMember
Maybe he doesn’t learn it from the passuk. It’s only used as a retort, why we wouldn’t learn issur from onesh, since here the Torah made a hekesh.January 22, 2014 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #999422
L.F. – The Meri learns like you that R’ yochonon’s real limud is from the svara. Of course the top tosfos learns that the possuk is the ikkur and the svara just confirms that the possuk is not an asmachta.
IN SUM YOU HAVE FOUR TERUTZIM: TOSFOS, THE rITVA, THE ACHIEZER AND meiri.January 22, 2014 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #999423dafyomi2711Member
look at the top tosafos on the amud he asks this questions and gives a nice tsrichusa.January 22, 2014 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #999424
um, I think I just referred to that tosafos. Actually, if you look carefully you will see tosfos actually ask the reverse kasha…. i.e. if there is a posek why do you need a svarah.January 23, 2014 4:03 am at 4:03 am #999425HaLeiViParticipant
How do we know that Rebbe Yochanan learns from the Svara? That was the Braysa talking. Also, very often the Svara is not necessarily how we came to the conclusion, but rather a description of the Shita. And on the flip side, we often have Limudim based on the Svara.January 23, 2014 5:52 am at 5:52 am #999426Sam2Participant
I assumed he needed a Passuk because the Svara is not a strong Svara at all.January 23, 2014 6:24 pm at 6:24 pm #999427
I guess no one looks at my posts:(January 23, 2014 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #999428
“the svarah is not a strong svarah”
There are two explanations for the svarah of chazi l’itztaryfai. According to the Tzlach ( and others) the Torah assered any amount since one might be oiver the issur kares by completing the shiur.
According to the Shagas Aryeh ( and others) the svarah is that if the torah gave kares for a full shiur then it is axiomatic that all of the components that got you to that shiur ( i.e. every little bite) must have been a cheftza shel issur.January 23, 2014 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #999429harosParticipant
daf! you the man! that achiezer is a classic! i remember it re:the avnei miluim!January 23, 2014 11:07 pm at 11:07 pm #999430
ok,only the sarcastic read my posts
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