Why does the frum world have no clout?

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  • #1872838
    Haimy
    Participant

    We are a block vote. We don’t bother anyone. We just ask to be left alone & practice our faith. Yet we now know how little clout we have in NY or NJ, the most concentrated area of frum Jews out of Israel. Forget about tuition relief which Agudas Yisroel has been pushing for 20 years, we can’t even get our Shuls to be legally open, our sleepaway camps, Our Yeshivos. We are like an invisible species living in NY & NJ whose religious & communal needs can be ignored as though we don’t exist. This reminds me of what the Chafetz Chaim said when the Polish judge asked him for his birth certificate in order to issue him a passport (to Eretz Yisroel) The Chafetz Chaim said that when he was born there were no birth certificates issued yet. The judge said then I’m sorry, I can’t issue you a passport! The Chafetz Chaim said that in the eyes of an Akum a Yid has no right to exist at all, his very existence is a favor on the part oof the Akum. That’s how the Akum can make such a rediculous statement. We are learning now how unimportant we are in the eyes of the Akum Vein lonue lihishoen rak al Avinu Shebashamayim!

    #1872924
    charliehall
    Participant

    No clout? The frum world put Bill De Blasio in the Mayor’s office and he has been totally responsive. For example, he prevented the Health Department from stopping metzitzah be peh, prevented the education department from investigating secular studies in yeshivot, funneled tax money to frum schools for universal pre-K, and allowed a frum funeral when no other religious group was allowed to have one.

    ” tuition relief which Agudas Yisroel has been pushing for 20 years”

    That requires amending the NY State Constitution, and then raising taxes. The former was tried in 1967 and it lost all 62 counties. And at least the charedi part of the frum world supports Republicans who want to cut taxes, not raise them. Significantly, the 1967 effort was spearheaded by liberal Democrats allied with Sen. Robert Kennedy.

    “we can’t even get our Shuls to be legally open, our sleepaway camps”

    That isn’t limited to shuls and frum camps. Churches and other camps face the same restrictions. We aren’t being discriminated against here.

    “I can’t issue you a passport”

    I have a US passport. My wife has a US passport and a Mexican passport. I think we exist.

    #1873030
    BY1212
    Participant

    See ליקוטי מוהרן חלק א תורה א

    #1873033

    haimy: you wrote “we can’t even get our Shuls to be legally open, our sleepaway camps” . If we are being treated differently then other religions your question may have merit. However, at leastfor religious services and sleepaway camps we are being treated the same as everyone else. Do you think only the frum yidden have sleepaway camps in NYS?

    #1873120
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Look at the Klei Yokor in Parashas Devorim on Penu Lachem Tzafana how to behave in galus. Our clout is Hakol Kol Yaakov to daven.

    #1873208
    som1
    Participant

    charliehal-” We aren’t being discriminated against here.” he kicks jewish kids out of parks yet cuomo defends protesters saying “I stand with the protesters and I think all well-meaning Americans stand with the protesters.”

    “My message to the Jewish community, and all communities, is this simple: the time for warnings has passed. I have instructed the NYPD to proceed immediately to summons or even arrest those who gather in large groups. This is about stopping this disease and saving lives. Period.” tweeted deblasio on April 28th, specifically singling out jews!!(just imagine the outrage from the left if he switched the word jews to Muslims, blacks, Chinese, etc.)

    coumo and deblasio are a anti Semites!!

    #1873205
    Abba_S
    Participant

    Reb Eliezer :Our clout is Hakol Kol Yaakov to daven. Perhaps you should not critcize the president if you want to be like Yakov.
    If you want to be taken seriously you have to get out the vote The Dems treat us like the blacks and take us for granted. Which is why many of us vote Republican.

    #1873268
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Abba_S, the president is of people for the people and by the people and therefore I can criticize him.

    #1873321
    Haimy
    Participant

    lowerourtuition11210
    Do our Shuls which function 12-24 hours a day compare to any other religious “temple”?
    Our summer camps are religious institutions. They are different than the few Akum camps out there. We should be marching for our religious rights to practice our religion freely in this country. I’m starting to realize that Satmar knows how to deal with the secular authorities better than anyone. The polite suit & tie askan has been raked over the coals in my humble opinion.

    #1873361
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Haimy,
    Not sure if I practice the religion you practice. Pretty sure you are incorrect about freedom of religion. You are correct about Satmar.

    #1873391
    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    Simple. It says venishmartem mead lenafshaseichem, we don’t have tbe medical research and tberefore we must listen to the authorities not to get infected. Even safek pekuach nefesh is docba shabbos.

    #1873399
    anonymous Jew
    Participant

    Haimy,camps are religious institutions? Just being operated by a yeshiva or shul doesn’t qualify. A shul/yeshiva owned home rented out to outsiders is subject to property taxes. Yeshiva operated catering halls in NYC got hit with hefty retroactive water bills last year . Just because a hall is part of a yeshiva doesn’t qualify it as a religious institution exempt from water bills.
    Satmar/Kiryat Joel generally speaking doesn’t care about a politician’s position on abortion and gay rights as long as they deliver on unfettered political support of Satmar religious practices in Kiryat Joel and financial benefits

    #1874013
    smerel
    Participant

    It boils down to the demographic and ideological changes that the US is undergoing.

    Thirty five years ago the frum world had a lot of clout .Secular politicians would come and speak by all sorts of frum dinners and events. (Chuck Schumer came to my YTV elementary school graduation thirty years ago. There is no way his replacement would either come or be welcome at such an event today) People like Reb Moshe Sherer had access to virtually all politicians. etc.

    The reason for this shift seems to be that the American values have moved much further away from frum values over the past thirty five years. Thirty five years ago even non-Jewish politicians and most of their constituents still valued things like religion and family values. Thirty five years ago even secular Jewish politicians strongly identified as being Jewish and had empathy for the Jewish community. Frum Jews included.

    Today however with the lurch to the left and progressiveness we no longer have common ground. A progressive politician who isn’t openly hostile and actively promoting policies that are adverse to the frum community is a good guy already.

    A progressive politician who actively promotes policies that are good for the frum community simply doesn’t exist.

    #1874442
    jdf007
    Participant

    The rest of the Jewish world has no clout either. I think about this, especially as today as my former secular university is going to give a humanitarian award to a very outspoken anti-semite. They keep streets named for such, statues etc. I see hypocrisy everyday. Why should it be just the frum world, why not all Jews, and quite honestly, all Americans??? There are Jews out there who are disconnected and see it too.
    I think it’s because in 3 or so generations, there’s no one to transmit values, culture or “religion” to them anymore. It’s one thing to have a parent or grandparent from the old country. But someone who is 15 or 30 today, who doesn’t go to Chabad and keeps to theirself?
    At least in the beginning, when Hollywood was still Jewish, I saw an amazing interview that everyone, even the non-Jewish people spoke Yiddish!
    We can’t have islands of different factions. Even if its hard to re-educate people who know nothing except western/christian drama’s on television, anything is better. I heard a Rabbi say that if all of this was lost in just 2 generations, imagine how easy it would be to get it back in 2!

    #1874524
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    We would have more clout if more of us would vote. And vote with the bloc.

    #1874727
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    3 factors:
    1. NYC as a whole took a hard turn to the left, someone like Rudy could never get elected today.
    2 The ethnic Europeans who we were able to count on help with to push a common agenda no longer exist they all move away, for example Benonhurst and Bay Ridge were mostly Irish and Italians, Greenpoint was Polish, certain areas of the Bronx were Albanians, most of these moved away and those districts went left.
    3. The Frum people became the issue, with Footsteps Etc., books by Deen, Feldman and Company, it became fashionable to knock the Frum community. This led to formation of groups like Preserve Ramapo/Rockland, Save Monroe, Rise up Orange County.
    So anyone running for office has to make a decision who they want to support the Frum or the Anti Frum, there is no common ground anymore.

    #1874898
    Pekak
    Participant

    Haimy thinks we’re supposed to have power and clout. We aren’t entitled to anything. We’re in Golus! We ask Hashem for things. Then we GROVEL at the feet of whichever goyim are in power. It doesn’t matter if we are doctors or lawyers or bankers. To the goy we are still dirty jews. I’m not into quoting the Lubavitcher Rebbe but sometimes it’s necessary. When asked if the Holocaust could happen again he said “overnight”. Bloc vote is meaningless. Frum (supposedly frum) elected officials are powerless. We shouldn’t be in any position of power. That’s what puts us in the crosshairs. This golus is a vicious cycle. We’ve had clout in the past but that didn’t take us out of golus. We should try improving our clout where it truly counts.

    B’zman shehaKol kol Yaakov ein hayadayim yedei Eisav.

    #1875626
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    1. Rudy was much more on the social left than he is today. He was tough on law and order. Which is why we voted for him.
    2. The ethnic cultures assimilate. Even their festivals and parades, become Americanized. If we want to have a more diverse religious bloc, we should turn to the new immigrant communities.
    3. If we had not splintered our own bloc, we would have less trouble with the Anti Frum left. Since every splinter votes and lobbies individually, it takes a large effort just to get a consensus against a common adversary.
    “there is no common ground anymore” Agreed.

    #1875668
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    nom,
    1. How old were you when Rudy got elected?
    3. In Lakewood and Rockland, 90% of the times there is unity in the Frum olam, the anti Frum such as Preserve Ramapo and rise up Ocean managed to organize a anti Frum vote, for example I get spam from Preserve Ramapo and they wrote that candidate X will be supported by the “bloc” so we will endorse the other guy, nothing about qualifications just the fact that the other has Frum backing

    #1875779
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    Until very recently, being pro gay rights was left-wing. Going back to nineties, it was hard left. Pro-abortion is still left. Personal life styles? Check. Also, the California liberal was practically invited to NYC by Rudy.

    #1875778
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Pekak,
    Haimy was not asking out of galus. He was asking to go to camp. We do not need power for that. Just a seat at the table. And he did not mean those camps.

    #1875783
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @nom You still did not answer the question

    #1875798
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Common,
    Pick a number from one to ten. We seem to tangle more when we agree.

    #1875838
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    I don’t know if this is applicable in Brooklyn, but We have too much of a bloc vote, especially in the suburbs: (1) the optics of a corrupt deal between 5 unknown askanim and a politician (“i could get you 20k votes if you just give me xyz”) is a chillul hashem. (2) The fact that many of us have no idea what kind of people we’re voting for and just vote for whatever the askonim say gives us a bad name. (3) a bloc vote automatically creates an anti-Orthodox backlash; if 40% of voters will vote with A no matter what, B has no option but to incite the other 60% to vote in a block; in a perfect world, we would encourage all politicians running to get as much frum votes as possible and we would encourage all frum voters to vote intelligently.

    #1875853
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @n0m, if you make sense I agree and If you don’t then I don’t agree.
    So how old were you when Rudy first got elected?

    #1875852
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    Your make an intelligent argument. However, (1) if the askanim to not get what they want from the politician for the community, (But they do get a pot of cash.) than there is a serious failure of leadership in that community. If they do get what they want for the community, yet the focus is on the corrupt deal, something is wrong with the whole community structure. (2) Most of America just votes for whomever. Based on party, race, media coverage, or some meaningless opinion. (3) If Yidden would care less about politics, they would just vote accordingly and move on. Then, other than political insiders nobody would know that the Jews are swinging the vote. It used to be like this in Lakewood. (They resorted to accusing the askonim of bribing voters.)
    Elections in the USA are not the same as in an Italian city-state. Elections do not mean much to the social contract of everyday Americans. The political bureaucracy pays significant attention to who votes and especially to larger blocs. While I have full faith in you to vote intelligently, any politician that has been at it a few years can make some religious statements and hoodwink a bunch of Frum voters. (What went on in Lakewood when I was there.)

    #1875922
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Dear n0,
    (3) I feel like that’s a false dichotomy. I think askanim should “educate” the masses on who is running; they shouldn’t be silent but neither should they be acting like a bunch of Mafioso. For example, There should be ads allowed from all candidates on our platforms, our media should interview all candidates, and we should have op-eds analyzing the candidates. On (2) we like comparing ourselves to blacks. ( And I am made to feel like an Uncle Tom every time I vote independently). However, in all white areas besides Urban or Appalachia the numbers are on average 60/40. So while everyone has their biases, most demographic areas in America are intelligent enough that every election cycle it looks a little different because individuals are making individual decisions. (1) i didn’t get what your’e saying. Regardless, i didn’t mean to emphasize on what the askonim are receiving in exchange for the votes. I just meant this whole idea of “delivering the votes” sounds like something out of Tammany Hall.

    #1875933
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    We could go back and forth. I want to try to play out your idea instead. So, we have the candidates appealing to the community, perhaps an independent community panel that educates and provides access to the politicians. Larger families that are struggling with budgets, will vote for school vouchers and lower property taxes. Older voters would want quieter communities with services for the homebound. Legalizing marijuana and lower driving ages will be controversial. And, the doofus candidate who hollers about some toievah will have access to all the yungerleit who normally do not follow politics. (Which is possibly Lakewood’s biggest bloc.) And then will come the government conspiracy candidate. And then…..

    #1875937
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Of course what we both are not saying out loud is that frum people are terrible voters and if Thomas Jefferson or any of the other founding fathers saw us, they would exclude us from voting. So this conversation is a non starter.
    And, yes. I would love to live in the utopian world you described. Seriously.

    #1876085
    charliehall
    Participant

    Trying to save Jewish lives is not anti-Semitic.

    #1876088
    charliehall
    Participant

    For over two centuries the main agenda of different ethnic groups in NYC has been to get governmental favors from politicians. Jews have been as effective at that as any group.

    However, now that we are loudly blasting De Blasio, who has kowtowed to charedi leadership more than any non Jewish politician ever, it is unlikely that we will have that influence in the future.

    #1876141
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @charliehall
    “However, now that we are loudly blasting De Blasio, who has kowtowed to charedi leadership more than any non Jewish politician ever”
    Really now? I think you have no grasp of reality, name me 5 things he did that benefited Charedi Jews.
    He was the worse mayor for the frum olam since David Dinkins and the Crown Heights Riot.
    wait he once hugged Avi Weiss, does that count has doing something positive for Frum People?

    #1876335
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    Do you think our community would be more centralized for it?

    #1876465
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @n0m, how old were you [about] when Rudy first got elected?

    just curious, what number post is this where you comment on or request info regarding his age?

    #1876737
    SchnitzelBigot
    Participant

    Not understanding what you mean by centralized

    #1876804

    frum people are terrible voters and if Thomas Jefferson or any of the other founding fathers saw us, they would exclude us from voting

    Explanation, please.

    #1877027
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Shnitzel,
    Will such a voting system be an overall benefit for our communal needs and wants? I could give examples that I wonder about.

    #1881188
    bsharg2
    Participant

    we need to vote in greater numbers to havre more clout

    #1881190
    bsharg2
    Participant

    jdf007: ” “The rest of the Jewish world has no clout either. I think about this, especially as today as my former secular university is going to give a humanitarian award to a very outspoken anti-semite. Why should it be just the frum world, why not all Jews???
    I think it’s because in 3 or so generations, there’s no one to transmit values, culture or “religion” to them anymore. It’s one thing to have a parent or grandparent from the old country. But someone who is 15 or 30 today, who doesn’t go to Chabad and keeps to theirself?
    I heard a Rabbi say that if all of this was lost in just 2 generations, imagine how easy it would be to get it back in 2!” ”

    @jdf007
    You’re right. The secular Jews lose all their “Jewishness” whether religion, culture, nationality, any attachment within 2 generations, because there’s no one to transmit values, culture or religion to them anymore. They are Jews too, like us, and sadly they are just completely lost without Torah, Hashem, or any values. They look for “meaning” in life and look for a place to belong. Many are scared to look to their own religion. They look at the goyim and other crazy religions. They join other crazy religions. They join “causes” like BLM, or other leftist factions in order to feel like they belong somewhere.

    This is why kiruv is so, so important. And not just bringing Jews in, but keeping them happy in our communities. We need to make an effort to be especially kind to BT, children of BT, grandchildren of BT. Don’t talk about the fact that “someone’s parents are BT” forget it, who cares. We need to be especially kind to gerim and children of gerim, etc. Don’t make them feel uncomfortable. Don’t say things that might hurt their feelings. Because it leads to people leaving the community, hating the community, and spreading ill will about the community. They then write books, TV shows, movies about it and it is not good for any of us.

    #1881246
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @bshrage2, and what does this have to do with the diminished clout of the Frum community?

    #1881819
    bsharg2
    Participant

    @commonsaychel: Because when people in the frum community say something unkind to a BT or to Ger, or make them feel uncomfortable enough to leave the community, then this person harbors ill will, starts spreading lashon hara about the frum community. Bad press leads to diminished clout.

    I think we all have to look at ourselves, as well as others in the community, and see how they treat people. Sometimes kids ask questions in school, they are made to feel bad for asking questions, they go OTD and spread lashon hara abuot the community.

    I think treating everyone with kindness is key.

    Second point—Obviously the more of us there are, the more clout we have. More numbers= more clout. More kiruv is needed to expand numbers (and retain people, retaining is so important)

    #1881865
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Bsharg,
    We need to give BT’s better care, than the rest of the community. Secular Jews do not just lose their Jewishness. Reform Judiasm is around for two centuries. Long time.

    #1882738
    huju
    Participant

    Secular Jews control the economy and Hollywood. There’s not much left for frum Jews.

    I got an e-mail from the head Jew (secular), and he told me I get to set interest rates on my upcoming birthday. Any frum suggestions?

    #1883061
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @huju, try saying that about your fellow blacks

    #1883150
    huju
    Participant

    To commons aychel: Ok, I’ll try:

    Secular blacks control the economy and Hollywood. There’s not much left for frum blacks.

    I don’t get it – not your point, not mine about blacks.

    #1883170
    Pekak
    Participant

    @n0mesorah

    Reform is around for two centuries? Really? Where are the descendants of the original Reform Jews? Are they Jewish? Do they even know?

    #1883196
    commonsaychel
    Participant

    @Huju, not worthy of a response, i don’t respond to anti-Semites black or white

    #1883215
    KGN
    Participant

    Simple Answer: The outside world doesn’t like us.

    #1883244
    huju
    Participant

    To commons aychel: I respond to false accusations that I am anti-Semitic. I am not. I am not black either, but that does not matter to you.

    #1883247
    n0mesorah
    Participant

    Dear Pekak,
    It is hard to identify people in Germany 200 years ago. Let alone trace their descendants through all the persecution. Going by the most famous family/ies, they are still around and they are highly educated. It would be amazing if they did not know the history of their own last name. Which was a major part of nineteenth century Europe.

    Are they Jewish? Who knows? Their ancestors were probably comfortable with where their children ended up. They advocated for assimilation, intermarriage, and even baptism.

    But in general, we do not associate groups of Jews with children. It is about disciples and followers.

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