Why don't jews have dogs? It is clear in the gemara and shulchan aruch that

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  • #597016

    quark2
    Member

    Why dont jews have dogs? It is clear in the gemara Bava Kema daf tes vav; daf mem vav, and Ksubos daf mem aleph that there is no issur to have one, d’oraysa or derabanan. The gemara brings a braisa that says that it is assur to raise a “kelev ra” in your house.

    This implies that it is only assur to have a kelev “ra” which is a danger to people. a regular kelev is fine.

    This gemara is brought down in Rambam and Shulchan Aruch (see ain mishpat there).

    Whats more, the mishnah in Bava Kama daf ain tes amud beis says that one may not raise a dog unless it is chained. THE TUR AND SHULCHAN ARUCH CHANGE IT TO KELEV “RA”. See the tosfos yom tov who points this out. (the tosfos yom tov says they got it from the braisa mentioned earlier, whereas the beis yosef implies that the mekor is from Rashi. This is not a stirah; the tosfos yom tov is saying where Rashi himself got it from. The tosfos yom tov also brings a raiah to this from another gemara, bava kama daf peih)

    So there you have it, Braisa, Gemara in many places, Rif, Rashi, Tur and Shulchan Aruch in several places, Tosfos Yom Tov, all clear that it is mutar to have dogs as pets

    :

    #770355

    Pac-Man
    Member

    And it is muttar to have monkeys as pets, and yet Jews don’t.

    #770356

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I know plenty of jews who have dogs.

    Maybe you meant to ask why yeshivish jews often don’t have dogs. Probably because they have a lot of kids, and that takes up all the affection they would have wanted to give to a BLAZED DOG

    #770357

    showerzinger
    Member

    Going to have to agree with PBA who beat me to it…Jews have lotsa kids, tuition, religious obligations, etc. They don’t need a dog to fill that void. Also, there are plenty of Jews I know that have dogs.

    #770358

    Pac-Man
    Member

    Kesef Mishna brings the Gemora supporting the Rambam in Mesechtes Bava Kama 15:2 not to have a dog in your house.

    and Rambam Hilchos Talmud Torah 6:14, and Hilchos Nizkei Mamon 5:9, Chazon Ish on Choshen Mishpat Likutim 18:9.

    #770359

    oomis
    Participant

    Who says they don’t? I know lots of people who do, my neighbors included. My parents, rather late in life had a dog, because he wandered into their yard on the day of Shloshim for my grandmother (who had lived with us and taken care of us for almost 30 years) O”H, which would also have been her birthday. My parents were as far from being dog owners as I would be from having a pet monkey (to quote another poster), but Max would not leave their yard, and he was incredibly adorable,loving, and fiercely protective of our family, especially my mom O”H. We like to think my Bubby sent him to us.

    #770360

    yaakov doe
    Participant

    Tonigh, Motzei Shabbos I saw a man dressed yeshivish walking a dog. First time I’ve ever seen a man with a black hat with a dog.

    #770361

    quark2
    Member

    sorry, i meant to say in my first post that i was (obviously) talking about “yeshiva world” (aka yeshivish, black hat, etc.) jews

    #770362

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    My mashgiach has a dog

    #770363

    quark2
    Member

    also studies have shown that pets can help reduce stress, improve mood, relieve depression, and improve overall health. just more reasons to own a pet (i’ll try to post a link to the study soon)

    #770364

    quark2
    Member

    pac man, where is this kesef mishnah? the Rambam in TT actually supports what i said. the Rambam in nizkei mamom is just quoting the mishnah, like he does in many places. The Tur and Shulchan Aruch both change that mishnah to “kelev ra”. I’m sure that the Tur and Shulchan Aruch both knew the Rambam that you mentioned, quite well.

    And your comparison to monkeys is so utterly ridiculous I’m not even going to comment on it

    #770365

    s2021
    Member

    I was just walking this shabbos with 4 other woman when we heard a dog bark. We ALL jumped in fear. It seems to be a very jewish middah to be afraid of dogs.

    #770366

    quark2
    Member

    coffee addict that’s interesting. he’s a mashgiach in what kind of yeshivah? And what part of the world is the yeshivah in?

    #770367

    Shrek
    Member

    my grandparents associate dogs with their terrifying experiences during the Holocaust. The Nazis used brutal dogs to maintain order in the camps & on marches. The dogs would literally tear people apart for stepping out of line.

    I think that fear of dogs got passed down to survivors’ families and descendants.

    #770368

    Pac-Man
    Member

    I don’t believe there was a groundswell of dog ownership in der alte heim, pre-war, either.

    #770369

    Shrek
    Member

    people were poor in der alte heim, could barely put food on the table for the family. my grandparents had cats, in order to get rid of the mice, but a dog served no useful purpose & would require food they couldn’t afford.

    #770370

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    I think dogs get a bad rap. They didn’t bark as we were leaving Mitzrayim.

    #770371

    Josh31
    Participant

    Sheep herding uses dogs. When we get back to bringing the Pesach offering we will need sheep and in turn some dogs.

    #770372

    quark2
    Member

    s2021 maybe its because you’re not used to dogs. If you would have dogs you wouldn’t be afraid of them

    #770373

    Pac-Man
    Member

    If you had monkeys, you wouldn’t be afraid of them either.

    #770374

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Quark,

    Miami Beach (I know you’re gonna say ohhhhhh that’s OOT)

    It’s a normal Yeshiva

    #770375

    s2021
    Member

    quark, no im very used to dogs. And its not just me- most females I know and some men too. Its very strange, dontchya think?

    #770376

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    “It seems to be a very jewish middah to be afraid of dogs.”

    A middah? It’s one thing not to like dogs, but a middah to be afraid of them?

    #770377

    shlishi
    Member

    it is a jewish trait to be shy. so a midda can be passive.

    #770378

    quark2
    Member

    Well I personally used to have a very slight fear, actually more like a nervousness than a fear, around dogs. I completely overcame this fear/nervousness in believe it or not of all places Israel, where I got used to being around many dogs in the street, both on leashes and mot

    #770379

    quark2
    Member

    coffe addict, just because you said it, ohhhhh that’s OOT

    LOL 🙂

    #770380

    BasYisroel94
    Participant

    I may have misheard, but someone told me that reshaim come back as dogs as gilgulim, and therefore some jews dont like having dogs as pets.

    Anyone else heard of this?

    #770381

    wanderingchana
    Participant

    shlishi: I know a lot of Jews who didn’t get that memo… LOL

    #770382

    Health
    Participant

    I’m scared of dogs because I was jumped by one as a kid. But if I could afford one, I wouldn’t mind having one for protection, like a German shephard.

    #770383

    TheGoq
    Participant

    That’s a very touching story Oomis ty for sharing it

    #770384

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Goq, is your dog barking in the middle of the night again?

    #770385

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Shrek, it is actually interesting because my father surrounded his house with big German Shepherds for protection and I heard this is common among holocaust survivors.

    The frum people who live in NYC are petrified of all animals, as they never had pets. I find people from out of town less afraid of animals.

    Do the people in the coffee room think that owning a cat is the same thing as owning a dog? Do yeshivish people own cats, is it “done”?

    #770386

    I don’t have dogs, but I do have three cats. All adopted from the streets of Jerusalem.

    If you think a black hatter with a dog looks funny, try a black hatter walking with a cat on a leash. No way I’d let my cats go outside alone in Jerusalem – only with a leash; way too dangerous there. But that’s not the end of it. One of them, the oldest, likes to sit/lie in my shoulders, around the back of my neck. Legs on my left shoulder, shoulders on my right shoulder. I take walks with him around the neighborhood like that.

    The looks when I pass a BY are just amazing….. “IEEEGGGGHSS!!!!” 🙂

    #770387

    charliehall
    Participant

    “I know plenty of jews who have dogs.”

    I know plenty of FRUM Jews who have dogs. We, however, have cats.

    #770388

    ZosHaTorah
    Participant

    Frum Jew here with a dog – and a big one at that. We got him 12 years ago, before we started having kids. He has brought both joy and frustration into our lives. He’s great with kids – very gentle. But we have sadly decided he will be our last dog.

    I would say 50% of the guests we have on Shabbos are terrified of him. Some of these people are so terrified they’d rather soil themselves than be in a room with him. My kids have friends who will not accept invites to play because of the dog. So you say, just put him away when people come over. Well, we do that, but the dog doesn’t understand why he’s being separated from all the fun, and he then barks and disturbs the neighbors.

    The only solution we can think of, is to give in to the fears of our friends and guests and let our dog play out his final years so he can hold the distinction of being our last dog.

    #770389

    R Shmuel
    Member

    Even if it is not assur, the question is why to have one. Not why not to have one. I think the REASON people have dogs is what may conflict with the Ruach Hatorah. (Not the actual having one).

    #770390

    oomis
    Participant

    Thanks, Goq. Max was a tremendous nechama to us after my Bubby died. And I cannot emphasize enough that we were NEVER a dog-owning type family, just the opposite. I was terrified of them until my mid-teens.

    #770391

    TheGoq
    Participant

    mod 42 the only dogs i have are in my freezer (turkey) but yes sometimes they will call to me in the middle of the night!

    #770392

    always here
    Participant

    Imaofthree~ I had cats; but when the newest litter of 3 were climbing onto the table onto my husband’s seforim… that was the end of it. now I have a fish :/ .. I’d love to have a kitten again now that all my children are married/out of the house. I’d love the companionship.

    #770393

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    Always here, if you do decide to get a kitten again, you can train it to not go on top of your table. Any time it goes on the table, clap your hands and say no, and you can give it a gentle shpritz with a water bottle. good luck.

    #770395

    quark2
    Member

    also what about tzar balei chaim? If the dog grows up wild without an owner it will probably have a much harder life.

    #770396

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Quirk, that last one was really funny!

    imaofthree, are cats terrified of water?

    #770397

    quark2
    Member

    i posted this right before my post about tzar balei chaim, but somehow it got deleted, so here it is again:

    R Shmuel can you tell us which REASON you are talking about?

    As for reason to have one, there are many. Also, like i said above, pets reduce stress improve mood etc. (here are the links to 2 of those studies,that show that pets reduce stress lower hi blood pressure etc.,you can probably find more with google; I think that being healthy is very much with the “ruach hatorah”, don’t you?

    According to this study pets can actually ADD YEARS TO YOUR LIFE. Refusal to own a pet can be a matter of PIKUACH NEFESH in some cases.

    no outside links, please

    #770398

    quark2
    Member

    i posted the links but they were deleted. Anyway u can easily find them by searching for “study pets stress”

    #770399

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    charlie: I know plenty of people who have both, but only one frum family who does.

    #770400

    zaidy78
    Participant

    What are frum (yeshivishe) people petrified when they find a lizard in their home? Or a louse in their hair???

    #770401

    Midwest2
    Participant

    Being afraid of dogs seems to be a New Yorkish kind of thing. Brooklynish specifically. Out of town we aren’t afraid of dogs (unless they’re ferocious-looking pit bulls and not on a leash 🙂

    #770402

    quark2
    Member

    midwest2 just out of curiosity where do you live?

    #770403

    Imaofthree
    Participant

    HaLeiVi, cats hate getting wet. Tigers like water and love to go swimming but regular house cats detest water.

    #770404

    brotherofurs
    Participant

    i used to be sooo scared of dogs after my friend’s grandmother’s dog ran after me in the house, and then another one that escaped from a house ran after me in the street once :[

    but my aunt took care of one once for some1 and he was the nicest thing and doesn’t even sniff u when u walk in the room….

    but then i got my fear back after i heard my teacher’s daughter was chased and was almost killed!

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