February 15, 2018 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #1470041
The following appeared regarding the recent massacre in Florida:
YWN mourns the death of all the victims, and our thoughts and prayers go out to all the victims equally. YWN is highlighting the Jewish aspect of this tragedy simply because of the interest of our readership. We continue to pray for the victims and their families – no matter their race or religion.
Why the disclaimer?February 15, 2018 2:05 pm at 2:05 pm #1470055
The Slide to the Left.February 15, 2018 3:04 pm at 3:04 pm #1470084
Because they also published an article that implied the opposite.February 15, 2018 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1470094
There are 3 possibilities:
1. Joseph is a troll
2. Joseph is either not Jewish or has not been taught that Jews are rachamim bnei rachamim, and also does not understand that non-Jews are also creations of HKB’H.
3. Joseph does not understand that we pray for the welfare of the nation we live in, especially the US, which is a malchus shel chesed.
I, for one, was happy to see that statement, since too many of us forget who we are as soon as some buzzword like “PC” crops up. Also, anti-Semites are more than happy to point out that some of us don’t regard non-Jews as quite human and are therefore enemies of the country they live in.
Yashir koach to the editors of YWN.February 15, 2018 3:06 pm at 3:06 pm #1470097
Correction: I mistakenly thought, for some reason, that Joseph was the OP. So please realize that my post applies to Avi K.
YWN practices responsible journalism according to its own editorial policy. Here in the Coffee Room we can air our biases, knowing that those who disagree with us have free rein to post their disagreements.February 15, 2018 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #1470110
Lame apology, and even Lamer points.February 15, 2018 3:45 pm at 3:45 pm #1470127
Coming from Midwest2, the guy who promotes Yidden watching movies, I’ll take any criticism from him as being a medal of honor.February 15, 2018 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1470139
I thought this was going to refer to the fact that YWN reposts a lot of AP articles (that would actually be worth discussing). This is just silly.
Remember the fuss in the CR a month back when a Chabad site was accused of “only caring about HaRav Shteinman’s health because it was a Chabad doctor treating him?” If we make those kind of accusations against each other, do you really think the goyim aren’t going to do so to us? Especially when a headline is posted that makes it so easy for them.February 15, 2018 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1470151
Also, anti-Semites are more than happy to point out that some of us don’t regard non-Jews as quite human and are therefore enemies of the country they live in.
Along those lines, I’ve wondered whether non-Jews or non-religious Jews encounter this site, and try to figure out what some of the discussions are about. Do they think that the participants are weird, or even dangerous?February 15, 2018 6:34 pm at 6:34 pm #1470246
Joseph – I checked back on the post you mentioned, which I don’t remember writing (it was more than six years ago), and I don’t see how that post can recommend going to movies. I just said that if someone is going to go to a movie they should choose with sechel. I don’t think it’s my business to tell other people whether or not they should go to movies. That’s between the person and their rabbi/advisor. I haven’t been inside a movie theater for thirty years, but I refuse to get all righteously indignant if someone else goes.February 15, 2018 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1470244
Dovid, given the interests of Zionist X-tians and the number of non-Orthodox Jews looking for information, I would say – almost certainly there are non-frum readers of the CR. I would also guess that there are at least some Messianic Jews and other types of missionaries who read the posts and use them for their own purposes.
That’s also another good reason for keeping the tone of our comments within the bounds of derech eretz, avoiding lashon hara, ona’as devarim, and general lack of politeness.
Two other excellent reasons. We already know that we’re always being watched by HKB”H. And what we do and say becomes a habit – today we realize when we haven’t lived up to our standards, and tomorrow the Y”H has helped it become “business as usual” and we don’t even think first.February 15, 2018 6:44 pm at 6:44 pm #1470150
Joseph, I hate to disillusion you but this is the first time I’ve posted in the CR in maybe five years (or more). At any rate, I don’t remember you being around then. I’ve only been lurking again for the past month or so. I was surprised I was still on the user system.
And in case you’re wondering, I don’t have a TV or go to movies. I will, on occasion, take a DVD out of the library and watch it at home (e.g. “The King’s Speech” or something rad like that). I don’t go to movie theaters and don’t think that most of the movies today are suitable for anybody, much less frume yidden, not just on moral grounds but because they’re so badly done. However, if someone else wants to go to movies, it’s up to them to make the call. I’m too busy working on my own middos to judge other people.
Neville: you got the point.February 15, 2018 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1470297
I strongly protest the OP’s and Joseph’s statements !February 15, 2018 8:51 pm at 8:51 pm #1470333
I am not certain why there even needs to be a debate regarding a simple statement by the editors that echoes a theme shared by virtually all yidden (except for a few trolls who derive some sick satisfaction from enraging others with their rants). All lives matter. Sure, each segment of society may hve a special interest in how a tragedy affects those closest to them (as stated in the YWN editorial note) but its a lot different than saying the lives and well being of Group A are more important than those of Group B. I recall several terrorist episodes where the hostages were separated out by yidden and others and in some cases a few heroic goyim claimed they were yidden or the group overall refused to self-segregate to protect yidden.February 15, 2018 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1470336
mdd1 – good for you!February 15, 2018 10:11 pm at 10:11 pm #1470344
mdd, which statement of mine are you protesting?
Midwest, if you don’t remember me being here 5-6 years ago then, er, you weren’t really around. In any event, your comment from that period said you were okay with watching Hollywood movies unless it was rated R. (Your reference.)
Has anyone yet marveled that I’m being grouped on this topic with Avi K?February 15, 2018 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1470393
Joseph, after reading many of your comments on various threads (and especially Chabad Shlucha – and no I’m not Chabad) I’ve come to the conclusion that you’re simply a troll, and will not be responding to any further posts by you. A freilichen Purim and goodbye.February 16, 2018 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1470507
Midwest2: If you deny the fact that Joseph is actually serious, you are denying the fact there are thousands of other frum, yidden who have the same hashkafa.
Are they all trolls too?February 16, 2018 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1470451
midwest2, please don’t use the word troll. I’m so tired of that word which is used as a general insult of anybody with their own opinion.February 16, 2018 8:07 am at 8:07 am #1470439
This is getting even more exciting. Now Midwest2 has concluded that not only is Avi K a troll but that I am one too. After first concluding I am, retracting that and saying I am not one but rather Avi K is. Now it’s double or nothing.
And how’d my friend ChabadShlucha come into this picture?
Anyways, Midwest2 has forsworn ever answering again. He’s too busy at the theatre with his non-R rated showbiz.February 16, 2018 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1470524
I’m still tickled pink that this thread has become “Team Avi K and Joseph”.February 16, 2018 8:21 am at 8:21 am #1470427
Midwest2, I am shocked by your opinion of Joseph. Why would you accuse him of being a troll? He hasn’t exactly kept it a secret.February 16, 2018 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1470560
1. I am Jewish.
2. I have been taught that Jews are rachamim bnei rachamim, and also understand that non-Jews are also creations of HKB’H. In fact, I posted protests against pejoratives directed at non-Jews.
3. if this be trolling let us make the most of it.
4. So why emphasize the Jewish side at all? I personally think that it is natural that each group prays more for its own members. None other than Avi Weiss said this when criticized for emphasizing love of Jews.
5. So why not disclaimers regarding articles that discuss something that happened to a frum Jew that emphasize that he was frum.
MTAB. it is like “incitement” in Israel, and, on the other hand, photoshopping politicians in SS uniforms.
Joseph, trolling makes strange bedfellows.February 16, 2018 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1470571
A Woman Outside BrooklynParticipant
Personally, I thought this disclaimer was a very positive step by YWN. Some years back there was a fire in a building I once lived in (which is not in Bklyn). A non-frum friend took offense at the article for only being concerned about the Jewish tenants. And to be honest, didn’t she have a point? If you ever look at comments on virtually any article on, for example, Yahoo News that concerns Jews and/or Israel, one of the most frequent rants is that we only care about our own. And many would be BT’s were ultimately turned off by an attitude projected by some that only their kind matter. We are still living in Galus, so wake up.February 16, 2018 11:41 am at 11:41 am #1470653
Avi K – some of your points are good, others maybe not.
As you note, words matter. In current usage, calling something “PC” automatically indicates that you disapprove of it, scorn it, and generally think it’s inaccurate and ridiculous. I’m curious as to why you think that phrase used by the YWN editors is so deserving of disapproval.
I’ve just read your other post, so it puzzles me that you named this thread the way you did.
Yes, we care more for our own, but that doesn’t mean we don’t care at all for others, and sometimes in the current atmosphere we have to emphasize that.
And yes, I agree that it isn’t fair to emphasize that some malefactor is frum when it has no bearing on whatever he did. However, you should realize that since we say we are the am hanivchar that other people expect us to live up to that status, so it is more “newsworthy” if a frum yid doesn’t.
Shabbat Shalom to all.February 16, 2018 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1470659
If you ever look at comments on virtually any article on, for example, Yahoo News that concerns Jews and/or Israel, one of the most frequent rants is that we only care about our own.
On the other hand:
Suppose a family conducts a memorial service for their child who was a victim of a mass shooting. Does the family deserve to be criticized for focusing only on their own child? Does that mean they’re being selfish and bigoted for not caring about the other victims?February 16, 2018 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1470665
“Coming from Midwest2, the guy who promotes Yidden watching movies, I’ll take any criticism from him as being a medal of honor.”
Joseph, your ultimate ‘Bekiyus’ in CR subjects/posts/threads is astounding!
Now if your learning would only be a fraction of that….February 16, 2018 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1470664
Suppose a family conducts a memorial service for their child who was a victim of a mass shooting. Does the family deserve to be criticized for focusing only on their own child? Does that mean they’re being selfish and bigoted for not caring about the other victims?
BINGO! Klal Yisroel is all family.February 16, 2018 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm #1470663
“The Slide to the Left.”
I guess the Tefilah for the ‘peace of nations/malchus you dwell in’ etc is “left” as well…February 16, 2018 12:47 pm at 12:47 pm #1470678
No, Gaon, davening for the malchus is not equivalent to saying that Yidden and Goyim are equal or that we should daven for them equally or hope for the safety of them both equally.February 16, 2018 1:15 pm at 1:15 pm #1470714
“davening for the malchus is not equivalent to saying that Yidden and Goyim are equal or that we should daven for them equally or hope for the safety of them both equally.”
Nor is merely stating that one should daven for nuchri giving it a status of equality. You can daven for both and daven more for your fellow yidden…February 16, 2018 1:25 pm at 1:25 pm #1470733
Suppose a family conducts a memorial service, and at the memorial service they mention that they are also sad for the tragedy affecting other families. Should they be criticized for not focusing only on their own?February 16, 2018 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1470737
“Suppose a family conducts a memorial service for their child who was a victim of a mass shooting. Does the family deserve to be criticized for focusing only on their own child? Does that mean they’re being selfish and bigoted for not caring about the other victims?”
That’s a good mushul and I think we all agree, but that doesn’t mean goyish readers are going to see it that way.February 17, 2018 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1470829
Exactly, the goyim won’t see it that way.February 17, 2018 7:02 pm at 7:02 pm #1470831
Woman, no matter what someone does someone else will take offense. Life is tough. What about black groups who focus on alleged injustices to blacks, Catholic groups that focus on Catholics, etc.? What about when American newspapers focus on American victims?
Midwest, so why mention the Jewish aspect at all? Just write that kids and a teacher were killed without mentioning their backgrounds? Interestingly, the Jerusalem Post, whose online edition certainly has non-Jewish readers, did not feel the necessity to explain away its concentration on the Jewish victims.February 17, 2018 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1470933
Why are you so offended by perceived political correctness?February 18, 2018 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1471217
There is a difference between “political correctness” and vulgarity. When being PC provides an excuse for failing to deal with serious public policy issues, that is wrong and “plain talk” may be necessary. But as we have sadly learned, “plain talk” can be civil and respectful but objective. Vulgarity and bullying simply provide anoher excuse for different segments of the population to avoid addressing the real issues.February 22, 2018 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #1475267
PC is a disease. Plain and simple.February 22, 2018 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1475285
Plain and simple, but simply false.February 22, 2018 7:53 pm at 7:53 pm #1475290
The answer to the OP is מפני דרכי שלום
To Joseph, see Gittin 59b (at the end of the Mishna). Chazal do not operate in your modern American left-right spectrum.
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