December 12, 2012 10:31 am at 10:31 am #912234icedMember
Look through Jewish history and you will find countless stories of great men who were imprisoned falsely by the goyish government after a trumped up show trial just as this case was. Whether it was the Maharam MiRottenberg who was jailed for life, just as c’v this case may be, or Rabbeinu Gershom, who was jailed on a family pretext. Or in more recent times the Baal HaTanya, the Rebbe Rayatz or even the hamon hoam such as Rubashkin, Pollard, the three bochorim in Japan, Yidden in Iran, Ostreicher in Bolivia (who we are still working on releasing), etc. They and Klal Yisroel still persevered.December 12, 2012 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #912235zahavasdadParticipant
To compare this RASHA to the Maharam M’Rottenberg is laughable and a tremendous lack of Kavod to the MaharamDecember 12, 2012 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #912236icedMember
The same self-hating Jews today who get excited seeing this innocent yid imprisoned, their great grandpas were likely the same erev rav cheering the Maharam M’Rottenberg’s life in prison sentence. They were yelling dina d’malchusa then required goyim to have a court system that imprisons a Jew for life after finding the Maharam “guilty” (and similarly Rabbeinu Gershom, the Baal HaTanya, Pollard, Ostreicher, Rubashkin, Japan bochorim, etc. all determined “guilty” and we must allow their imprisonment by the goyishe courts).December 12, 2012 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #912237December 12, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #912238gavra_at_workParticipant
Look through Jewish history and you will find countless stories of great men who were imprisoned falsely by the goyish government after a trumped up show trial just as this case was.
I’ll comment to the Troll because this is a critical and showing point.
Satmar and the other “sects” (cults may be a better term) still believe that they are living a version of 19th century Europe. Goyim are only good for cheating them out of their money, but the Goyim are always looking for ways to hurt the Jews (specificly these sects. Other Jews aren’t real “Yidden”, their stockings aren’t thick enough!). It is an “Us vs. Them” mentality, which then justifies any illegal action. After all, “They” are out to get us.
Contrast that with the “Yeshivish” Olam (by that I mean the Gedolim like the Noveminsker, Rav Dovid Feinstein, and Rav Shmuel, as well as Rav Yaakov, Rav Moshe & Rav Ruderman in the previous generation) who work with the US goverment as a “Medinah shel Chessed”, and specificly (although they do fight for Yidden) DO NOT believe that the government is out to get Yidden.
Case in point, take a look at R’ Avi Shafran’s recent articles, which have heaped praise on Pres. Obama for his stance towards our brothers in Eretz Yisroel. Now imagine one of the sect leaders saying such a thing, it would (and could) never happen.
As a final thought here, if the Goyim only exist to cheat & rob, then it explains why tax and benefits fraud are muttar.December 12, 2012 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #912239uneeqMember
Cool name, bro.December 12, 2012 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #912240akupermaParticipant
There are many evidentiary questions that might not be clear until there is an appeal (since many of them would have been decided other than in a open court, e.g., in discussions with the judge). The record on appeal, and appeal briefs, will be public documents.
If there was evidence that she was coached by a social worker, that is evidence that should have been admitted, and perhaps transcripts and the social workers notes should have been in evidence (N.B.: most “recovered memory” cases turned out to be hoaxes). If there was evidence that she had a revenge motive based on events not discussed at trial, that raises a serious fairness issue. Were her medical records ever discussed or available? Did the defendant ask for a change of venue? Why the delay in filing a complain? Were there witnesses to them being alone together? Were there witnesses to discuss if the “counseling” was held in a private place, or somewhere where yichud was observed? Was “yichud” explained to the jury? For most frum Jews, if they were alone in a locked room with a bed, something that should have been easy to find witnesses for, his cases collapses. Where the antics of persons other than the defendant (perhaps forgiveable if they were unaware of how American courts work, but still quite illegal) known to the jury, and should they have triggered a mistrial? Did the pretrial statements of advocacy groups and the District Attorney create a hostile atmosphere which would require a change in venue. Were there any Hasidic Jews on the jury, or in the jury pool? Did the court allow questioning on religious prejudice in the voir dire? Was there physical evidence that was inadmissable?
If, as the press reports, the only evidence was the girls testimony, that is a very weak case since under American law guilt must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It could be there is other evidence. It could also be that the anti-frum groups in the “politically correct” establishment in New York were “railroading” an innocent person.
It should be remembered that most non-hareidi Jews deeply dispise Satmar for political reasons, and that the New York liberal establishment is increasingly angry at Orthodox Jews (of all types) for being vocal opponents of the “politically correct” positions on social issues. The fact they we see involvement by these groups, such as a public relations campaign by “victim’s rights” groups, should raise serious questions of fairness.December 12, 2012 5:43 pm at 5:43 pm #912241JayMatt19Participant
@iced, aka Joseph
The boys in japan weren’t falsely imprisoned. No one, outside of yourself and your own dilusions, ever claimed that.
The claim was that they were naive trusting boys who were taken advantage of.
Pollard also isn’t falsely imprisoned, he committed espionage and admitted to it, the claim with Pollard is that he was given too harsh of a sentence.
As former Senator Moynahan once said “you can have your own set of views, but not your own set of facts”
And please don’t ever put the Maharam M’Rottenburg and Weberman in the same sentence ever again.December 12, 2012 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #912242gavra_at_workParticipant
Were there any Hasidic Jews on the jury, or in the jury pool?
Chassidic Jews wouldn’t be caught dead in a jury pool. They would insist on a “religious objection”, so that they don’t have to associste with Goyim on the jury.
Besides, you would say “chassidic”. Who are you quoting?December 12, 2012 6:09 pm at 6:09 pm #912243zahavasdadParticipant
The Rasha was NOT convicted because he was a Jew, He was NOT convicted because he was Chassdic , He was NOT convicted because he was Satmar.
He was convicted because he was GUILTY and a RASHA
By equating true victims of Anti-semtism with this Rasha, you are deligitimatzing their imprisionmentDecember 12, 2012 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #912244HealthParticipant
JayMatt19 -“Pollard also isn’t falsely imprisoned, he committed espionage and admitted to it, the claim with Pollard is that he was given too harsh of a sentence.”
You’re a lying Antisemite! He had a plea agreement deal. Whether he broke the deal first and then the Gov. is irrevelant. Once a plea agreement deal is broken the standard practice is to have a trial with a Jury of his peers. It’s the only case that I know about that the deal was thrown out And Not his Guilty Plea!December 12, 2012 6:43 pm at 6:43 pm #912245WolfishMusingsParticipant
You’re a lying Antisemite!
Wow, you’re full of vitriol.
Let me ask you this: even if what you say (regarding Pollard) is true (I don’t know one way or the other), isn’t it within the realm of reasonable possibility that the poster did not know that?
Or is it your policy to scream “lying Antisemite” to anyone who may happen to have potentially incorrect information?
The WolfDecember 12, 2012 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #912246YW Moderator-007Moderator
It may be time to shut this thread down………
Seems like everyone got whatever they needed out of their system, and e can all move along.December 12, 2012 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #912247JayMatt19Participant
Thanks for calling me a lying antisemite. Much appreciated.
Yes or no did he stand up in front of a judge and admit to committing a crime?
Yes or no was he forced into this admission?
Your only claim is that he got a harsher sentence, not that he is innocent.
So in your own post you insult me whilst agreeing with me.
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