Why is everybody anti anti-vaccine theories, a dissertation

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  • #614455
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    When questioned about anti-vaccine theories, everyone hastily avoids the subject, and judging from this post

    http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/vaccines-1#post-135908

    YWN CR shares those sentiments. Why? If there is no validity to their arguments, prove it factually and efficiently. Don’t dismiss their views evasively.

    STEP 1-THE FACTS:

    1. Those who are pro vaccines can easily hide behind the shield of condemning all anti-ers as radical and reform.

    2. Anti-vacciners may very well be the result of radicalness, cynicsm, and distrust.

    3. All doctors, and most others are likely scared of any truth there may be in the claims of the anti. Should it turn out the the claims of the anti are correct, they can never forgive themselves for the problems wrought by their own hands.

    4. Many of the pro do not engage in debate with the anti, usually offering some buzz phrase, like, ‘the benefits outweigh the risks,’ usually after denying any risks whatsoever.

    5. If the pro are right, there is no logical reason why they should not, calmly, and factually, defend their position.

    STEP 2: THE HYPOTHESIS:

    There is more validity to the antis’ points that the pro would like to admit, yet they are subconciously pre-progammed, brainwashed, even, to uphold the decades-old practice, lest it turns out that they have been responsible for compromising on the health of themselves, their patients, and their children.

    STEP 3: THE RESEARCH: I’m stuck. YWN CR doesn’t allow such topics.

    #1100406
    Sam2
    Participant

    Some “debates” are just not worth discussing. See what happens when I just replace a few words.

    STEP 1-THE FACTS:

    1. Those who are pro that the Holocaust happened can easily hide behind the shield of condemning all anti-ers as radical and reform.

    2. Holocaust deniers may very well be the result of radicalness, cynicsm, and distrust.

    3. All Jews, and most others are likely scared of any truth there may be in the claims of the deniers. Should it turn out the the claims of the deniers are correct, they can never forgive themselves for the problems wrought by their own hands.

    4. Many of the believers do not engage in debate with the deniers, usually offering some buzz phrase, like, ‘you’re an anti-Semite,’ usually after denying any contrary evidence whatsoever.

    5. If the believers are right, there is no logical reason why they should not, calmly, and factually, defend their position.

    STEP 2: THE HYPOTHESIS:

    There is more validity to the deniers’ points that the believers would like to admit, yet they are subconciously pre-progammed, brainwashed, even, to uphold the decades-old belief, lest it turns out that they have been responsible for compromising on the integrity of world and German history.

    STEP 3: THE RESEARCH: I’m stuck. YWN CR doesn’t allow such topics.

    Here are the facts: refusal to vaccinate has led to hundreds, if not thousands, of deaths and major problems in children in this country in the last decade. They are the most rigorously tested things in the world, especially in America. Sometimes responding to others claims does more harm than good. Giving legitimacy to anti-vaccines is horrible, just like giving legitimacy to Holocaust deniers is.

    #1100407
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Vaccines make us feel safe and happy. Their effectiveness is irrelevant.

    #1100408
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1100409
    ivory
    Member

    The manner in which sam2 replied reinforces the point the op made. That the people who are blindly pro vaccine do not logically respond to logical questions. It is not a face that children died due to not giving vaccines. Quite the opposite. Thanks for listening

    #1100410
    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: This is not technically an application of Godwin’s Law because I’m not comparing anything to the Holocaust; I’m comparing something to Holocaust denial. And even so, I’d jump to Godwin’s Law pretty darn quickly with refusal to vaccinate. There was an episode of Law&Order where the DA charged a parent who refused to vaccinate with reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter after kids in the playground died of the measles which they contracted from their kid. Someday soon an actual AD is going to have the guts to actually do that and it will be well-deserved. Refusal to vaccinate endangers lives in so many ways. It’s absurd that some people believe it’s all a hoax. I honestly had someone once tell me that polio never existed and that it is just revisionist history to get us to believe Big Pharma. It’s insane and it actually kills people.

    #1100411
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Meh. Same priciple. But you really convinced me by citing a fictional (I assume) TV show (I assume).

    FTR, I vaccinate my kids.

    Ivory, why do say “blindly”? I personally haven’t researched it, but the responsible medical professionals I’ve spoken to have, and are staunchly in favor.

    #1100412
    Sam2
    Participant

    ivory: If people like you existed in the 1950s we would still have smallpox killing 1-3 million people every single year. It’s obscene. Half a billion people died of smallpox in the 19th century. Half. A. Billion. That is more than 1.5 times the population of the US.

    I’m not scared of your questions. Ask me any question about vaccinations. I’ll answer them. The OP didn’t ask any questions. The OP made a point that is absurd and I showed why. I was just pointing out, in very strong terms, that the OP’s assertions were ridiculous. Some things aren’t up for debate. The Holocaust is one. The effectiveness of vaccines is another.

    #1100413
    000646
    Participant

    Facts that are indisputable:

    1.) SmallPox was eradicated world wide when people started being vaccinated against it

    2.) Polio has been eradicated from the USA when people started being vaccinated against it

    3.) Diphtheria has been eradicated from the USA when people started being vaccinated against it

    4.) Occurrences of Hepatitis A are down 91% in the USA since people started being vaccinated against it

    5.) Occurrences of Measles are down 99% in the USA since people started being vaccinated against it

    6.) Occurrences of Mumps are down 99% in USA since people started being vaccinated against it

    7.) Occurrences of Pertussis are down 93% in the USA since people started vaccinating against it

    There are another 6 I could list off the top of my head but am too lazy to write now. Debating if vaccines work is like debating if the world is flat. Anyone who does not believe that they work is delusional, ignorant of the facts, lying, or all of the above. Some things really are that simple.

    #1100414
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam, I have a question about vaccination, and you said you’ll answer any such question. So here’s my question:

    If someone has 10 selaim to his name, and neither he nor his son had a pidyon haben yet, and one candle costs five selaim and it’s erev Shabbos Chanuka and one cup of wine costs five selaim and one kezais of bread costs five selaim, and one vaccination costs five selaim, and the mohel will only give his son a bris if he pays him five selaim, and he doesn’t own a pair of tefillin but can rent one for a day for five selaim, and someone is willing to bet him five selaim that ???? ????? is muttar even when there’s no tza’ar, how if at all should he spend his money?

    #1100415
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He should bet that mapis mursa is assur without tzaar, then he’ll have fifteen selaim to work with.

    #1100416
    Joseph
    Participant

    PAA: Give it to Tzedakah, since Tzedakah Tatzil Me’Maves.

    #1100417
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    How does the bet work?

    #1100418
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Lior:

    The only tzedaka available is kupat ha’ir which is going to use the money for Chanuka presents.

    #1100419
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    By the way, the main significance of the pidyon haben part of the question is in light of R’ Moshe’s answer to the Beiur Halacha’s kashya, in Igros Moshe Orach Chaim 5:41, and in light of R’ Yaakov Emden in She’eilas Ya’avetz siman 155

    ( http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1408&pgnum=140 )

    #1100420
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant
    #1100421
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Shkoyach DaasYochid. I would have linked it myself but I thought that chelek 8 was not on hebrewbooks, because recently I wanted to link a teshuva from chelek 9 and they didn’t have it, so for some reason I thought they didn’t have 8 either (even though I have linked 8 in the past).

    #1100422
    frumnotyeshivish
    Participant

    I think vaccines cause global warming. Because big pharma are in cahoots with the illuminati, the children of the nazis, and doctors, to wipe the jewish infested cities of NY and LA off the map. I believe it. Prove me wrong. Idiots. Murderers.

    Suppose I had a belief in shooting a gun off at random around my children and all the children in my neighborhood. Should I not go to prison? Should I not at least be forcibly restrained? Should I be allowed to keep my children? These are important questioned that need to be asked and answered.

    #1100423
    Sam2
    Participant

    PAA: You have the Mohel give the Bris then refuse to pay because the Mohel is asking for money Shelo K’din. Then, off the top of my head, I think the order of preference would be Chanukah candle (Pirsumei Nisa) then bread. You don’t do the Shabbos candle because Shalom Bayis is irrelevant if there’s no food. You can make the Kiddush on the bread in such a scenario. The bet is Assur because Asmachta Lo Kanya and the friend thinks he’s right so you’d be stealing. The rest aren’t as Overes as the Ner Chanukah and the Seudas Shabbos.

    #1100424
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Speaking of R’ Yaakov Emden’s position, let’s say in my above story the only issues at hand were the two pidyon habens, and the guy has 10 selaim. The Gemara in Kiddushin (29a-b) says:

    ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????

    So it’s clear that his own pidyon haben as priority over his son’s. Now let’s say there are two kohanim. The guy gives five selaim to one kohen for his own pidyon haben. Now he has five selaim left. Should he use it for his son’s pidyon haben, or should he use it to do his own pidyon haben from the second kohen. According to R’ Yaakov Emden he still has a chiyuv for his own pidyon haben, and the Gemara says that his comes before his son. So lichora, the guy should redeem himself twice and not redeem his son. However, there is a good argument against this (which is the same argument that I applied to an esrog at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/5#post-398593 ) namely that legabay the son’s pidyon haben it’s a safek d’oraisa (if the kohen is a valid kohen) whereas legabay the father it’s only a sfeik sfeika (1- he might have already been redeemed from the first kohen and 2- the second kohen might be a valid kohen) so the chiyuv of the son should supersede the chiyuv of the father.

    Either way, in a stam case of a pidyon haben, every additional kohen you go to would be a sfeik sfeika and then a sfeik sfeik sfeika and so on. So the position of R’ Yaakov Emden is a clear support to the Mutzal M’eish which I quoted at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/5#post-398814 that by an asei, even a sfeik sfeika is lechumra.

    #1100425
    Little Froggie
    Participant

    Why can’t he be ???? ????? ??????

    #1100426
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    Sam2:

    The Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chaim 678:1 says that ner shabbos supersedes ner chanukah and although the Magen Avraham says that perhaps nowadays since we light inside, ner chanuka is better, the Mishnah Berura does not accept the Magen Avraham’s position and the Aruch Hashulchan says you can rely on it in a sha’as hadchak. The Shulchan Aruch in 263:3 says that ner shabbos supersedes wine for kiddush. And back in 678:1 he says that ner Chanukah comes before kiddush. But this is all if you have bread. If you don’t have bread, it’s a machlokes acharonim about bread vs ner chanukah. Both the Mishnah Berura and the Aruch Hashulchan pasken that bread supersedes ner chanukah, and the commentaries say that bread even supersedes ner shabbos. In my case, the mohel won’t do the bris until you give him the money.

    Regarding the bet, I think that DaasYochid would say that ther’s an anan sahadi that the friend knows he’s wrong (this would be a good place for an emoticon).

    And let’s say the case is that the kohen(im) and the mohel are leaving town right after Shabbos and they’re not coming back.

    #1100427
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Shalom Bayis is irrelevant if there’s no food.

    That’s what I told my wife.

    #1100428
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Sam, since you may utilize the Chanuka light not to bump into things, and nowadays we light inside, therefore Shabbos candle is not a problem.

    #1100429
    charliehall
    Participant

    “If there is no validity to their arguments, prove it factually and efficiently”

    It has been proven. Furthermore, the guy who originally claimed that vaccines were associated with autism was proven to have been a fraudster; he has lost his medical license. All this is easy to verify on the internet for anyone who doesn’t buy into all the nutty conspiracy theories about government and the pharmaceutical industry, a set of conspiracy theories that have as much basis in fact as the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Sam2’s point is well taken — it is about as worthwhile to argue with anti-vaxxers as it is to argue with holocaust deniers.

    #1100430
    catch yourself
    Participant

    Hmmm. Do we really suspect our doctors and pediatricians of being “in cahoots with Big Pharma” to the extent that they would deliberately endanger the lives of their patients to perpetuate the vaccine conspiracy?

    Or is it that we believe them to be misled, apparently not intelligent enough to research the issues and draw their own conclusions? Or, perhaps, they simply do not care enough to do the research necessary to ensure that they continue to provide excellent care to their patients?

    I am not a medical professional, and I do not have the education or time to research the issue of vaccines. Luckily for me, it would be a waste of time, since every single doctor I have ever asked has reacted with great passion about the danger of the anti-vaccine crowd. This includes pediatricians and specialists who are leaders in their respective fields, based not only on wide repute, but on their positions and peer reviews.

    For one, Dr. Shanik, who is well known to be a great Tzadik and whose practice is (as far as I know this is still the case) the largest pediatric practice in the state of New Jersey, is a strong advocate of vaccines. Is he out to kill and maim Jewish children?

    Come, now, this is ludicrous.

    #1100431
    northwardb
    Member

    “Why is everybody anti anti-vaccine theories, a dissertation?”

    The verbiage is a mask for neo-Luddite ignorance. They blather on so much because they have so little to actually say, nothing with any hard science behind it anyway.

    Refusing to vaccinate one’s children should, as a rule, be considered felony endangerment. We ought not to hoist our children on our own ideological petards.

    #1100432
    2scents
    Participant

    Comparing teh vaccination controversy to holocaust deniers is a very good comparison.

    If one is truly concerned about the well being of their children and wants to know the truth, then just go out and do your own research.

    The entire vaccination controversy was started by Andrew Wakefield, who at the time surgeon and medical researcher in Britian.

    In the year 1998 he published a study in the Lancet linking the MMR vaccines to autism.

    In the following few years there were thousands of articles and comments mainly by non experts based on Wakefields study, this helped ignite the vaccination controversy, and people began having a fear of vaccinating their children.

    After many attempts at duplicating Wakefields findings were unsuccessful, investigations revealed that the entire study was funded by trial lawyers and the legal aid fund, for the sole purpose of litigation.

    Wakfields partners and all the co authors then came out and revealed that not only were there no links between the vaccines and autism, the lab results actually showed that there were no links.

    The Lancet fully retracted the study, Wakefields license to practice was revoked, and his study was named the biggest medical hoax in the past 100 years.

    This is the short version.

    #1100433
    2scents
    Participant

    Brian Deer, was the journalist that uncovered Wakefields fraud, he personally interviewed some of the parents of the children that were part of the study. He revealed that the results were twisted and actually proved the contrary, that there was no link between the MMR vaccine and autism.

    Brian, interviewed the co authors of the study, and Nick Chadwick who worked for Wakefield at the time, Chadwick revealed that the entire study was a fraud, and the tests proved that there was no link at all between the MMR vaccine and autism.

    Brian also revealed that nine months before wakefield released his study, he filed for patents in a few different countries for vaccinations that would not cause autism. These Patent applications were filed in USA, UK, Japan.

    Wakefield

    These are facts.

    #1100434
    2scents
    Participant

    Bump

    #1100436
    screwdriverdelight
    Participant

    The Holocaust denials are perpetuated by anti-semites who are not interested in the truth; they know the truth and choose to ignore it. Debating their point would be counter-intuitive. Would an ignoramus come along and innocently ask to be proven that the Holocaust happened, then there is no reason not to reason with him, to show all the books and eyewitness accounts testifying to the holocaust.

    Anti-vaccinationers, whoever the original may have been [and lost his medical license–like huge duh no kidding; that doesn’t reflect at all on whether or not he was correct], are now innocent people thirsting for truth and yearning to do the right thing for themselves and their children.

    #1100437
    ubiquitin
    Participant

    scared not quite. Anti-vaccinators are not interested in the truth, if they were this one would be easy since they can look at any of dozens of peer reviewed studies proving the safety of vaccines.

    Anti-vaccinators are guilty people putting theri own and other children at risk.

    If an ignoramus came along and innocently asked vaccine safety be proven, no problem do a quick pubmed search.

    #1100438
    Health
    Participant

    scared driver delight -“If there is no validity to their arguments, prove it factually and efficiently. Don’t dismiss their views evasively.”

    All the medical prof. that are honest don’t evade & we have proven it “factually and efficiently”!

    “STEP 1-THE FACTS:

    4. Many of the pro do not engage in debate with the anti, usually offering some buzz phrase, like, ‘the benefits outweigh the risks,’ usually after denying any risks whatsoever.”

    I will Not go on the defensive because people like you, presumably, relish in any attention. “Bad publicity is better than No publicity!”

    I will just discuss your line -“‘the benefits outweigh the risks,'”, the reason we say this is because we are “brutally” honest! We Don’t “deny any risks whatsoever” -like you claim!

    #1100439
    profound101
    Participant

    It would be really nice when ppl say things like “vaccines cause death” and the like that they would back it up with evidence. If/when you can do this I am sure many ppl would be glad to enter into a discussion about it with you.

    #1100441
    2scents
    Participant
    #1100442

    I am not someone who gets into vehement arguments about vaccines, either pro or anti. However, I have something important in common with the people who do: I possess literally no objective or accurate information about vaccines.

    The vaccine controversy is real and it is the fault of the medical establishment as much as it is the fault of a few flawed studies. Because of the stakes involved in public health, nobody ever gives a straight answer to questions about vaccinations. Moreover, you can believe that the doctors, the government and big pharma are acting totally l’sheim shamayim (they are not, BTW) and still believe they are lying. Their job is to support the public health. If vaccines caused any ill effects, their job would be to weigh the public benefit against the public costs, and make a decision whether to be open about the costs if it may result in fewer vaccinations. But an individual should care about the individual costs and make a decision based on his or her personal circumstances.

    Here are some examples that support what I wrote above:

    1. We are nagged endlessly every year to get the flu shot. Few doctors will tell you the objective fact that the flu shot is directed only at a few strains of the flu, and that it has side effects. They will tell you that the flu kills 35-50000 Americans every year. Assume the number itself is true (it isn’t); they don’t tell you that the overwhelming majority of the victims are elderly or infants, and that the flu vaccine is only designed l’chat’chila to address about 50% of anticipated flu cases in the first place. So you’re taking a vaccine with a high chance of side effects, to protect against a disease that would be incredibly unlikely to harm you at all, and the protection is only 50% better! NONE of what I wrote is remotely controversial. It happens because ten thousand people getting minor side effects is nothing to the government, while 20 lives of elderly people and infants that are saved is something to them. So forgive me if I am skeptical generally of the government’s claims about vaccines.

    2. A similar situation is true of the chicken pox vaccine. I am old enough (and I’m not that old) to remember doctors directing parents to seek out chicken pox for their children. Now there is a vaccine that provides dramatically less protection against chicken pox than the old practice. The vaccine needs to be renewed every fifteen years or so, and therefore makes it more likely that people will get chicken pox as adults, when it is serious, rather than as children, when it’s not. Oh, and shortly after the vaccine was approved, we started to learn that chicken pox in children is often fatal and our doctors started to tell us that only negligent parents would question whether to vaccinate against chicken pox.

    3. The HPV vaccine. Enough said.

    In short, I can’t claim to have knowledge about the “important” vaccines. Because I do believe that of all the terrible sources of information we have, the government is the least-worst, I vaccinate my children. But you have to be completely credulous to think that just because the government supports it or just because the guy who initially published the study was “discredited”, vaccines are an unmitigated blessing.

    #1100443
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What veltz said.

    To add my two cents: Anyone who gives the HPV vaccine to their son should be prosecuted for child abuse. HPV literally has no effect on men, and the only purpose of giving it to boys is to protect girls. You shouldn’t be making that choice for your son, to his detriment in any amount.

    #1100444
    profound101
    Participant

    I think only once one has made at least a preliminary study of immunology are they permitted to post on such threads. Veltz’s ignorant borderline phobic rant is testament to this.

    #1100445

    Profound: Another choice would be to explain what you think I’m wrong about and why you think I’m wrong. Honestly, I doubt you even comprehend what I wrote.

    #1100446
    Matan1
    Participant

    Popa,

    Child abuse? Really? I can understand the reservation of some in the frum community about the HPV vaccine, but it does prevent several different kinds of cancers. It also has provides protection to males for some other diseases.

    #1100447
    2scents
    Participant

    VM,

    You are off point, the main discussion is the MMR vaccines, not the ones that you mentioned.

    I do not know why you say that doctors do not reveal the fact that the flue vaccine handed out each year is only against one strain of the virus, this is something that is well knows and well discussed.

    The doctors hope that the researchers and scientists did their homework in predicting which strain of the flue virus will hit us, and encourage us to vaccinate ourselves, so that we are protected against the potentially deadly virus.

    Most years they are more or less on the ball in predicting which strain would hit us, this year they were off, they miscalculated the strain that hit us.

    This is a fact and no one is hiding it.

    I have not researched the chicken pox vaccine well, however I believe that most pediatricians believe that the VZV vaccine does immune the patient, and one shot is more tolerable than having the actual virus.

    Again, this has nothing to do with the MMR vaccine, which was well researched, and determined to be safe.

    As I posted above, the people who published the studies showing that the MMR vaccine was unsafe, not only were they ‘discredited’, it was a huge fraud, and the study was proven to be false, it was a very small study and the results were manipulated, this was proven.

    The Lancet stated that the ‘study’ against the MMR vaccine was the biggest medical hoax in the past 100 years.

    #1100448
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Matan: I feel like you’re talking around me.

    Cancer? Men don’t get that.

    Other diseases? Which? I’ve never heard of that.

    #1100449
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The CDC website says that one of the HPV vaccines helps against certain types of cancer in males.

    #1100450
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The PETA website says that using animals in any way is wrong.

    #1100451
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: I’ve never heard of that. Even it is true (which I am not convinced), the other people giving the vaccine don’t know that, so my charge holds.

    #1100452
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Most people trust their pediatricians to do the research for them. They’re not abusers for vaccinating according to their recommendations. They’re not abusers if they trust the CDC either, regardless of whether you had heard of it before.

    Rebyidd, PETA’s worldview is a lot more in line with the anti vaccine people than with the pro vaccine people.

    #1100453
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Most people trust their pediatrician to do the research for them.

    For something where the pediatrician has different incentives than they do? I think that alone is child abuse.

    #1100454
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I think my pediatrician has my children’s best interest in mind. So report me.

    #1100455
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I think my pediatrician has my children’s best interest in mind. So report me.

    Fine, your’re just a moron, not a bad parent. Happy?

    #1100456
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    On my way to Beaver Mountain now. How did you know?

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