Why is everybody anti anti-vaccine theories, a dissertation

Some “debates” are just not worth discussing. See what happens when I just replace a few words.

STEP 1-THE FACTS:

1. Those who are pro that the Holocaust happened can easily hide behind the shield of condemning all anti-ers as radical and reform.

2. Holocaust deniers may very well be the result of radicalness, cynicsm, and distrust.

3. All Jews, and most others are likely scared of any truth there may be in the claims of the deniers. Should it turn out the the claims of the deniers are correct, they can never forgive themselves for the problems wrought by their own hands.

4. Many of the believers do not engage in debate with the deniers, usually offering some buzz phrase, like, ‘you’re an anti-Semite,’ usually after denying any contrary evidence whatsoever.

5. If the believers are right, there is no logical reason why they should not, calmly, and factually, defend their position.

STEP 2: THE HYPOTHESIS:

There is more validity to the deniers’ points that the believers would like to admit, yet they are subconciously pre-progammed, brainwashed, even, to uphold the decades-old belief, lest it turns out that they have been responsible for compromising on the integrity of world and German history.

STEP 3: THE RESEARCH: I’m stuck. YWN CR doesn’t allow such topics.

Here are the facts: refusal to vaccinate has led to hundreds, if not thousands, of deaths and major problems in children in this country in the last decade. They are the most rigorously tested things in the world, especially in America. Sometimes responding to others claims does more harm than good. Giving legitimacy to anti-vaccines is horrible, just like giving legitimacy to Holocaust deniers is.

http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/grammar-is-making-a-comeback#post-443707

DY: This is not technically an application of Godwin’s Law because I’m not comparing anything to the Holocaust; I’m comparing something to Holocaust denial. And even so, I’d jump to Godwin’s Law pretty darn quickly with refusal to vaccinate. There was an episode of Law&Order where the DA charged a parent who refused to vaccinate with reckless endangerment and involuntary manslaughter after kids in the playground died of the measles which they contracted from their kid. Someday soon an actual AD is going to have the guts to actually do that and it will be well-deserved. Refusal to vaccinate endangers lives in so many ways. It’s absurd that some people believe it’s all a hoax. I honestly had someone once tell me that polio never existed and that it is just revisionist history to get us to believe Big Pharma. It’s insane and it actually kills people.

ivory: If people like you existed in the 1950s we would still have smallpox killing 1-3 million people every single year. It’s obscene. Half a billion people died of smallpox in the 19th century. Half. A. Billion. That is more than 1.5 times the population of the US.

I’m not scared of your questions. Ask me any question about vaccinations. I’ll answer them. The OP didn’t ask any questions. The OP made a point that is absurd and I showed why. I was just pointing out, in very strong terms, that the OP’s assertions were ridiculous. Some things aren’t up for debate. The Holocaust is one. The effectiveness of vaccines is another.

Sam, I have a question about vaccination, and you said you’ll answer any such question. So here’s my question:

If someone has 10 selaim to his name, and neither he nor his son had a pidyon haben yet, and one candle costs five selaim and it’s erev Shabbos Chanuka and one cup of wine costs five selaim and one kezais of bread costs five selaim, and one vaccination costs five selaim, and the mohel will only give his son a bris if he pays him five selaim, and he doesn’t own a pair of tefillin but can rent one for a day for five selaim, and someone is willing to bet him five selaim that ???? ????? is muttar even when there’s no tza’ar, how if at all should he spend his money?

PAA: Give it to Tzedakah, since Tzedakah Tatzil Me’Maves.

Lior:

The only tzedaka available is kupat ha’ir which is going to use the money for Chanuka presents.

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=922&pgnum=180

I think vaccines cause global warming. Because big pharma are in cahoots with the illuminati, the children of the nazis, and doctors, to wipe the jewish infested cities of NY and LA off the map. I believe it. Prove me wrong. Idiots. Murderers.

Suppose I had a belief in shooting a gun off at random around my children and all the children in my neighborhood. Should I not go to prison? Should I not at least be forcibly restrained? Should I be allowed to keep my children? These are important questioned that need to be asked and answered.

Speaking of R’ Yaakov Emden’s position, let’s say in my above story the only issues at hand were the two pidyon habens, and the guy has 10 selaim. The Gemara in Kiddushin (29a-b) says:

??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ?’ ????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ???????? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?????? ????

So it’s clear that his own pidyon haben as priority over his son’s. Now let’s say there are two kohanim. The guy gives five selaim to one kohen for his own pidyon haben. Now he has five selaim left. Should he use it for his son’s pidyon haben, or should he use it to do his own pidyon haben from the second kohen. According to R’ Yaakov Emden he still has a chiyuv for his own pidyon haben, and the Gemara says that his comes before his son. So lichora, the guy should redeem himself twice and not redeem his son. However, there is a good argument against this (which is the same argument that I applied to an esrog at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/5#post-398593 ) namely that legabay the son’s pidyon haben it’s a safek d’oraisa (if the kohen is a valid kohen) whereas legabay the father it’s only a sfeik sfeika (1- he might have already been redeemed from the first kohen and 2- the second kohen might be a valid kohen) so the chiyuv of the son should supersede the chiyuv of the father.

Either way, in a stam case of a pidyon haben, every additional kohen you go to would be a sfeik sfeika and then a sfeik sfeik sfeika and so on. So the position of R’ Yaakov Emden is a clear support to the Mutzal M’eish which I quoted at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/techeiles/page/5#post-398814 that by an asei, even a sfeik sfeika is lechumra.

Sam2:

The Shulchan Aruch in Orach Chaim 678:1 says that ner shabbos supersedes ner chanukah and although the Magen Avraham says that perhaps nowadays since we light inside, ner chanuka is better, the Mishnah Berura does not accept the Magen Avraham’s position and the Aruch Hashulchan says you can rely on it in a sha’as hadchak. The Shulchan Aruch in 263:3 says that ner shabbos supersedes wine for kiddush. And back in 678:1 he says that ner Chanukah comes before kiddush. But this is all if you have bread. If you don’t have bread, it’s a machlokes acharonim about bread vs ner chanukah. Both the Mishnah Berura and the Aruch Hashulchan pasken that bread supersedes ner chanukah, and the commentaries say that bread even supersedes ner shabbos. In my case, the mohel won’t do the bris until you give him the money.

Regarding the bet, I think that DaasYochid would say that ther’s an anan sahadi that the friend knows he’s wrong (this would be a good place for an emoticon).

And let’s say the case is that the kohen(im) and the mohel are leaving town right after Shabbos and they’re not coming back.

Sam, since you may utilize the Chanuka light not to bump into things, and nowadays we light inside, therefore Shabbos candle is not a problem.

Hmmm. Do we really suspect our doctors and pediatricians of being “in cahoots with Big Pharma” to the extent that they would deliberately endanger the lives of their patients to perpetuate the vaccine conspiracy?

Or is it that we believe them to be misled, apparently not intelligent enough to research the issues and draw their own conclusions? Or, perhaps, they simply do not care enough to do the research necessary to ensure that they continue to provide excellent care to their patients?

I am not a medical professional, and I do not have the education or time to research the issue of vaccines. Luckily for me, it would be a waste of time, since every single doctor I have ever asked has reacted with great passion about the danger of the anti-vaccine crowd. This includes pediatricians and specialists who are leaders in their respective fields, based not only on wide repute, but on their positions and peer reviews.

For one, Dr. Shanik, who is well known to be a great Tzadik and whose practice is (as far as I know this is still the case) the largest pediatric practice in the state of New Jersey, is a strong advocate of vaccines. Is he out to kill and maim Jewish children?

Come, now, this is ludicrous.

Comparing teh vaccination controversy to holocaust deniers is a very good comparison.

If one is truly concerned about the well being of their children and wants to know the truth, then just go out and do your own research.

The entire vaccination controversy was started by Andrew Wakefield, who at the time surgeon and medical researcher in Britian.

In the year 1998 he published a study in the Lancet linking the MMR vaccines to autism.

In the following few years there were thousands of articles and comments mainly by non experts based on Wakefields study, this helped ignite the vaccination controversy, and people began having a fear of vaccinating their children.

After many attempts at duplicating Wakefields findings were unsuccessful, investigations revealed that the entire study was funded by trial lawyers and the legal aid fund, for the sole purpose of litigation.

Wakfields partners and all the co authors then came out and revealed that not only were there no links between the vaccines and autism, the lab results actually showed that there were no links.

The Lancet fully retracted the study, Wakefields license to practice was revoked, and his study was named the biggest medical hoax in the past 100 years.

This is the short version.

Bump

scared not quite. Anti-vaccinators are not interested in the truth, if they were this one would be easy since they can look at any of dozens of peer reviewed studies proving the safety of vaccines.

Anti-vaccinators are guilty people putting theri own and other children at risk.

If an ignoramus came along and innocently asked vaccine safety be proven, no problem do a quick pubmed search.

It would be really nice when ppl say things like “vaccines cause death” and the like that they would back it up with evidence. If/when you can do this I am sure many ppl would be glad to enter into a discussion about it with you.

I am not someone who gets into vehement arguments about vaccines, either pro or anti. However, I have something important in common with the people who do: I possess literally no objective or accurate information about vaccines.

The vaccine controversy is real and it is the fault of the medical establishment as much as it is the fault of a few flawed studies. Because of the stakes involved in public health, nobody ever gives a straight answer to questions about vaccinations. Moreover, you can believe that the doctors, the government and big pharma are acting totally l’sheim shamayim (they are not, BTW) and still believe they are lying. Their job is to support the public health. If vaccines caused any ill effects, their job would be to weigh the public benefit against the public costs, and make a decision whether to be open about the costs if it may result in fewer vaccinations. But an individual should care about the individual costs and make a decision based on his or her personal circumstances.

Here are some examples that support what I wrote above:

1. We are nagged endlessly every year to get the flu shot. Few doctors will tell you the objective fact that the flu shot is directed only at a few strains of the flu, and that it has side effects. They will tell you that the flu kills 35-50000 Americans every year. Assume the number itself is true (it isn’t); they don’t tell you that the overwhelming majority of the victims are elderly or infants, and that the flu vaccine is only designed l’chat’chila to address about 50% of anticipated flu cases in the first place. So you’re taking a vaccine with a high chance of side effects, to protect against a disease that would be incredibly unlikely to harm you at all, and the protection is only 50% better! NONE of what I wrote is remotely controversial. It happens because ten thousand people getting minor side effects is nothing to the government, while 20 lives of elderly people and infants that are saved is something to them. So forgive me if I am skeptical generally of the government’s claims about vaccines.

2. A similar situation is true of the chicken pox vaccine. I am old enough (and I’m not that old) to remember doctors directing parents to seek out chicken pox for their children. Now there is a vaccine that provides dramatically less protection against chicken pox than the old practice. The vaccine needs to be renewed every fifteen years or so, and therefore makes it more likely that people will get chicken pox as adults, when it is serious, rather than as children, when it’s not. Oh, and shortly after the vaccine was approved, we started to learn that chicken pox in children is often fatal and our doctors started to tell us that only negligent parents would question whether to vaccinate against chicken pox.

3. The HPV vaccine. Enough said.

In short, I can’t claim to have knowledge about the “important” vaccines. Because I do believe that of all the terrible sources of information we have, the government is the least-worst, I vaccinate my children. But you have to be completely credulous to think that just because the government supports it or just because the guy who initially published the study was “discredited”, vaccines are an unmitigated blessing.

I think only once one has made at least a preliminary study of immunology are they permitted to post on such threads. Veltz’s ignorant borderline phobic rant is testament to this.

Popa,

Child abuse? Really? I can understand the reservation of some in the frum community about the HPV vaccine, but it does prevent several different kinds of cancers. It also has provides protection to males for some other diseases.

Matan: I feel like you’re talking around me.

Cancer? Men don’t get that.

Other diseases? Which? I’ve never heard of that.

The PETA website says that using animals in any way is wrong.

Most people trust their pediatricians to do the research for them. They’re not abusers for vaccinating according to their recommendations. They’re not abusers if they trust the CDC either, regardless of whether you had heard of it before.

Rebyidd, PETA’s worldview is a lot more in line with the anti vaccine people than with the pro vaccine people.

I think my pediatrician has my children’s best interest in mind. So report me.

On my way to Beaver Mountain now. How did you know?