Why is Lavud Part of the HL"M of M'chitzin?

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  • #612084

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sukkah 6b, as the Gemara says, according to R’ Meir. It is apparent that it applies to things other than walls. See 4b, and Shabbos 97a.

    Wouldn’t it seem to makes sense for it to be in its own category?

    #1002768

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    DaasYochid; gute voch! I am only using this posting as they closed the other one long time ago. You may remember that ,in a different context, on the matter of “bedikas toloim”, you produced a page of the shulchan aruch (joreh deah) with the Pri Chodosh on one side and the “Pri Toar” on the other side. At the time, I did not know who the “Pri Toar” was.Maybe you know this, but in any case, my very erudite sons told me today that it is the “Ohr Hachaim”, famed, of course, for his pirush on Torah.

    #1002769

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Gut voch, thank you, yes I was aware. It might interest you to see what he says (Vayikra, 11:43) about the prevalence of toloim in his day.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38297&st=&pgnum=33&hilite=

    #1002770

    Sam2
    Participant

    Why do you assume a Mechitzah means a “wall”? A Mechitzah means something that delineates one object/area/thing from another.

    Also, look carefully at every case. Lavud D’Oraisa only applies to Mechitzos. The concept may be borrowed for D’rabannans in other cases.

    #1002771

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    We see in Shabbos 9, in Tosafos on the Sugya of Kaveres, that Lavud is applied to Mechitzos differently than the typical as-if-it-landed Lavud.

    #1002773

    Todros Gimpel
    Participant

    This exact kasaha had been bothering me for years.

    (I did not expect it to find it asked on a web site).

    Here is the pshat that we finally worked out last Sukkos.

    It seems that there 2 types of lavud, one that “fills up” the empty space (Ritva Sukah 16b) and a second one that “pulls” the 2 sides together (Magen Avraham siman 632 s”k 5).

    The nafkah minah between the two types is if the halachic width of the wall after lavud includes the empty space or not.

    The din of lavud by Mechitzas is of the first type while the general din of lavud is the second type.

    The general din of lavud is therefore insufficient to give a Sukkah wall a shiur of 7 tefachim because it just pulls the sides together.

    So we need the special din of lavud by Mechitzas to give the wall the full shiur which it can because it fills up the space.

    Sam2: Lavud is used to pattur hotzaa on shabbos under 3 tefachim (Shabbos Daf 80).

    #1002774

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Lavud is used to pattur hotzaa on shabbos under 3 tefachim (Shabbos Daf 80).

    And to be Mechayev, as in Hotzi Chatzi Grogeres according to Rava.

    #1002776

    Sam2
    Participant

    Are we sure that Lavud by Mechitzos is the same type of Lavod as the Din that anything within 3 Tefachim of the ground is considered part of the ground?

    #1002777

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sam, I never heard otherwise, and even if so, we would have to ask why it’d not listed here. (Unless I’m not realizing that this is not a complete list.)

    It would be a big chiddush to me if there were two lavuds.

    #1002778

    mobico
    Participant

    A big question dealt with by the Acharonim on this Amud is why the list of Mechitzin agreed to by all Shitos is missing Shelishis Afilu Tefach, which Rashi DH Hilchesa clearly writes is part of it as well. I suggest that it is because the list is comprised only of those Halachos l’Moshe mi’Sinai related to Mechitzin that we have dealt with thus far in the Masechta. If this is so, then the original question is answered as well.

    #1002779

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Mobico, that makes sense only if you assume as Sam suggested, that there are two lavuds, and the non mechitzah one was not listed because it wasn’t mentioned. I think this is far fetched, though. It seems more mistaver to assume that it’s the same lavud, and that lavud is not really a din in mechitzos.

    #1002780

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t have time right now to elaborate, but see ???”? ????. I think according to him it’s ?????.

    #1002781

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    He asks why the Gemara needs to say (to answer for R’ Meir) that the Hilch’sa of m’chitzin is for gud, lavud and dofen akumah, when it could have said it’s for the third wall.

    He answers that according to the Gemara on 7a, the third wall is a wide tefach, placed within three tefachim of the perpendicular wall (lavud), and that this is in fact the intent of the Gemara’s reference to the HL”M referring to lavud.

    He then says that this answers a difficult Ramba’m (Shabbos, 16-11), who days that lavud is included in the category of shiurim, which is not what our Gemara says. The Gemara over here is referring to a specific application of lavud, the third wall. The general lavud, though, is in fact not part of m’chitzin, rather, shiurin.

    #1002782

    only me
    Member

    where is this ???”? ?????

    #1002783

    DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Sukkah 6b. In the back of the Vilna Shas.

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