November 25, 2021 11:47 am at 11:47 am #2033844EJMRBroParticipant
transfer 100 credits and write a essay at the third grade level for a BA. if you are getting a degree for signalling, this isnt the way to do it. If you want to work in your uncles bagel shop and hold a phone for a living then do it.
Idk why people dont just do the real thing if they go to school.November 25, 2021 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #2033947AviraDeArahParticipant
They’re accredited through colleges; they’re not scams. There’s a mitzvah to make a living; there’s no mitzvah to be thoroughly and seriously educated(actually, it might be the opposite), so yidden find aitzos to get degrees and get paid more for the same jobs or start new careers without having to waste time learning about gender studies or how white supremacy is the foundation of America.November 25, 2021 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #2033956ujmParticipant
Employers rarely verify if the claimed higher education/degree on a resume is real, before hiring.November 25, 2021 1:39 pm at 1:39 pm #2034012EJMRBroParticipant
@aviradearah in cases where people have good connections education is not necessary. education is indeed a waste of time then why pay some theives to steal your money with zero presteige? Remember the statistics dont lie about degree holders and incomeNovember 25, 2021 1:41 pm at 1:41 pm #2034018CTLAWYERParticipant
Employers may not check before hiring, but when they are dissatisfied with an employee it is often checked. If fraudulent the employee can be fired for lying in the application (which prospective employee agreed to in signing the application) and the employee will be out of a job and unable to collect unemployment in most states. If firing for job performance it is subject to interpretation, possible union grievance procedures, appeals etc. This is a much cleaner and easier to fire an employee, they lied, gi\ot caught and hung themselves.November 25, 2021 1:44 pm at 1:44 pm #2034025GadolhadorahParticipant
“Employers rarely verify if the claimed higher education/degree on a resume is real, before hiring”
Perhaps if you are applying for a job where academic credentials are marginal to the skills-set need to perform effectively. However, just about all the firms I have worked with in the legal and financial sectors DO take academic yichus seriously and verify both resume claims of degrees, honors etc. Those listing a degree on their resume purchased from some online diploma mill or lying about a degree from a respected university are unlikely to even get to the interview phase of employment screening.
Its a totally separate question whether some positions list totally unnecessary academic requirements relative to an objective assessment of what is needed for the actual job functions or whether some employers continue to focus on graduates of certain Ivy League schools while ignoring really qualified candidates from really good universities w/o the “reputation”.November 25, 2021 8:53 pm at 8:53 pm #2034183ujmParticipant
CTL, as a lawyer you know that the vast majority of private sector jobs are “at will” employment, where the employer can fire employees for any or even no reason (other than a discriminatory/protected minority basis). As such, a fake degree might land a job otherwise the applicant had no chance of, whereas if he’s later fired he only lost what he otherwise wouldn’t have ever had. As far as unemployment, my understanding is that most states will not deny it based on a pre-employment claim. But even to the extent that they might, the now former employee likely gained a lot more in the months/years he was employed than losing a few months of unemployment.
As far as unions are concerned, they rarely represent the vast majority of private sector employees in the first place.
Gadol: It’s difficult to believe that the firms you reference will be calling the universities of all the hundreds of applicants or dozens of potential interviewees for each and every of the many hundreds of positions they fill each year. That would take quite a huge amount of resources. How, exactly, were they verifying every interesting applicant’s resume they receive.
All the above, of course, is no excuse to fib on a resume despite the fact that it is well known that a large majority of resumes are quite inflated in their claims compared to the reality. This is merely in response to the original point here.November 25, 2021 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #2034195FrumStatisticianParticipant
If EJMR stands for what I think it does (and your reference to degrees as signalling implies this), then please just stop trolling here and go back to EJMR. We have enough trolls floating around here as it is.November 25, 2021 9:48 pm at 9:48 pm #2034217
> Employers rarely verify if the claimed higher education/degree on a resume is real,
As mentioned, this is true only in places where you need a degree to make a check. There is indeed credential inflation where degrees are required just because they can ask and serves as a proof that
a person will be able to answer the phone.
Everyone in a reasonably advanced business looks at the granting institution and pretty much knows what to expect from there and what to ask during interview. Many small/medium firms tend to hire from a small set of institutions. I was interviewed at a place where 50% were PhDs from a top-five institution, and they were joking warmly about lowering their standards. But they gave my presentation a fair hearing and after a year nobody mentioned my lowly pedigree.November 25, 2021 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #2034225
Avira > there’s no mitzvah to be thoroughly and seriously educated
Please realize that you are talking from a certain narrow POV. Someone will certainly have a more certain parnasah, a better quality of life and self-respect, and less yetzer hara of business aveiros being an MD than selling shmatahs.
> so yidden find aitzos to get degrees and get paid more for the same jobs or start new careers without having to waste time learning about gender studies or how white supremacy is the foundation of America.
Again, this is OK for jobs that require a check on a degree, rather than serious knowledge. You surely know difference between good and average yeshivos, same exists in professional world. So, if someone gets this degree to be a store manager it is fine, but if he uses it to become, say, a supervisor of a nursing home and then loses people during Covid due to lack of knowledge, then it is not OK.November 25, 2021 9:50 pm at 9:50 pm #2034228
> a fake degree might land a job
I think the question was about fake institutions, not fake applicants. So, some places just need minimal qualifications as a formality, so there is no geneiva daas involved.
Other places need a real degree with professional knowledge, so they protect themselves by hiring from known institution and avoiding College of Lower Catskills.
Still, many people go to such degree mills, spend some money on it and then discover that they are not employable. This would be geneiva daas. Acknowledging that the same is happening with nominally respectable colleges in their non-employable departments. Not to Avira: there are many degree programs where nonsense classes that you mention are required at a minimum and do not constitute bulk of studies. Your sources may be biased or misinformed.November 25, 2021 9:51 pm at 9:51 pm #2034235GadolhadorahParticipant
UJM: All the big law firms and most investment banks use a combination of personal interviews at law schools, referrals legal headhunters etc. to screen their potential hires. Very few actually come through emailed resumes. Students are hired as “summer associates” after first and second year of law school and the large percentage of 1Ls and 2Ls are offered permanent positions contingent on their passing the bar exam. The upper tier of investment and commercial banks use similar referral and interview techniques and are increasingly bypassing MBAs and instead looking for really smart young men and women with diverse backgrounds and good quant skills and train them internally. I suspect, given your background, you are more familiar with hiring in the tech sector but I’m told that they increasingly use AI and headhunters to screen job candidates but DO verify both academic and prior employment resume claims before extending an offer.
I agree with you entirely that most resumes “inflate’ prior job experience but I very much doubt that many applicants would lie about where they have earned a degree or knowingly list “Yenavelt University” with the expectation of a job offer from a top firm. I have seen instances where a lateral hire conflates one of the many “executive study programs” offered by top business schools with a “graduate degree” from those schools, but not aware where we ever extended an offer to such an applicant.
I’m most impressed by some of the newest very new high tech and social media firms that could care less about pedigrees, graduate school reputation and seem to have the ability to identify really talented individuals, some with just high school diplomas, and they turn out to be rock stars in their respective fields.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.