Why isn't coffee or chocolate kitniyos?

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  • #617556

    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    How is it different than cocoa which could easily be confused with whole wheat flour?

    #1146713

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t think resemblance to flour is really the issue – matzah is made with flour.

    I believe they do actually discuss coffee and cocoa beans being kitniyos because they’re beans.

    #1146714

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I believe they do actually discuss coffe and cocoa beans being kitniyos because they’re beans.

    That isn’t very nice of you, and I’m not even sure what that insult is supposed to mean.

    You’re barley.

    #1146715

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/tursa.aspx?a=oc_x2208

    See Shaarei Teshuvah.

    Then do TESHUVA.

    You’re cheesecake.

    #1146716

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Beans and barley are ingredients. Cheesecake is a prepared (non)food.

    #1146717

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Coffee is a room, and chocolate is an addiction.

    #1146718

    The Queen
    Participant

    Chocolate is a way of life.

    #1146719

    writersoul
    Member

    They’re both technically fruit, I believe.

    And DON’T TAKE AWAY MY CHOCOLATE.

    #1146720

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    They’re both technically fruit, I believe.

    Do you say borei p’ri hoeitz?

    And DON’T TAKE AWAY MY CHOCOLATE.

    Let me have my coffee, and it’s a deal.

    #1146721

    writersoul
    Member

    I think that R Lior of Kiryat Arba just paskened that any chocolate made with recognizable cacao beans (so not white chocolate, which is only cocoa butter) is haetz. Don’t know if anyone but him agrees though.

    #1146722

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    R’ Shlomo Zalman was asked about chocolate covered raisins and almonds, that since really we should be making hoeitz on chocolate, at least on those we should say hoeitz. He answered that since l’ma’aseh we say shehakol on chocolate, that’s not the case (so we need to determine which is the ikkar).

    #1146723

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Quinoa is a berry , like a strawberry and nothing like a string bean and yet some have called it Kitnyot

    #1146724

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Why isn’t coffee or chocolate kitniyos?

    <NOT SERIOUS ANSWER>

    G’zeirah She-ain HaTzibbur Yachul La’amod Bah. 🙂

    </NOT SERIOUS ANSWER>

    The Wolf

    #1146725

    akuperma
    Participant

    Can one make bread or pastry out of coffee. They can be added to flour, but one can’t make them into anything that one could confuse with bread. Corn and rice (and quinoa) can be turned into bread or cakes. Coffee and cocoa are just flavorings.

    Of course then you into a discussion of why potatos are allowed, though when you make a flour from it, it is only “bedievad” that it can be turned into bread of cakes, whereas corn can be used to make passable bread and cakes.

    #1146726

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    G’zeirah She-ain HaTzibbur Yachul La’amod Bah

    Oh, come one, people can live without bread for eight (plus) days but not coffee or chocolate?

    (http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/why-dont-we-bring-a-koran-chatas-after-pesach#post-606982)

    #1146727

    theprof1
    Participant

    the chachomim who made the kitniiyos gezeira did not deem cocoa or coffee beans as kitnoyos. cottonseeds arent either. the main idea was making flour. potatoes were almost assured but then european jews would have nothing to eat so it wasnt assured. sefersim didnt accept the gezeira so they do eat. rav abadi actually does make a borei pri ha’etz on chocolate but not on coffee.

    #1146728

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Potato bread is more common than you think

    #1146729

    cherrybim
    Participant

    Only those Ashkenazic poskim who were part of the original kitnios g’zeira (about 600-700 years ago) were permitted to determine which foods would be part of the g’zeira; we cannot do it on our own.

    This is why we are safe with potato starch even though it’s more like flour than mustard seed (kitnios) yet perfectly ok. Those Ashkenazic Rabbonim never ate potatoes and, therefore, did not experience potato starch to make a g’zeira.

    Another example: Rav Moshe zt”l held that peanuts were never part of the kitnios g’zeira mesorah, so he permitted peanuts on Pesach.

    When I was young, peanut oil was THE oil used on Pesach by everyone. Whatever happened to that? Today no kashrus agency would put a hechsher on Pesach peanut oil. Why? Because they would be accused of all kinds of nasty things. Enough said.

    #1146730

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How common do I think potato bread is?

    I think you need some wheat flour to make potato bread.

    #1146731

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Why aren’t all sorts of nasty things said about kashrus agencies which certify olive oil or cottonsed oil or butter or chicken schmaltz?

    #1146732

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    They sell Potato bread with the Frankfurter or Hamburger Rolls

    Only those Ashkenazic poskim who were part of the original kitnios g’zeira (about 600-700 years ago) were permitted to determine which foods would be part of the g’zeira; we cannot do it on our own.

    Corn was not available in Europe. Its a totally american crop and was brought back to Europe after the Europeans came to the new world

    Mustard is another example of the ever increasing chumralaztion of Kityot

    #1146733

    cherrybim
    Participant

    DY- except for cottonseed oil in Israel, your examples are not part of the mesorah controversy.

    #1146734

    yehudayona
    Participant

    ZD, you’re too literal. Strawberries aren’t berries (at least botanically). I don’t know where you get the idea that quinoa is a berry. Wikipedia says it’s a pseudocereal (like buckwheat, which IS considered kitniyos).

    DY, three of the four fats you list aren’t derivatives of seeds that some people consider kitniyos. I’ve heard that some people consider cottonseeds kitniyos, but I don’t know of any use of cottonseeds as food for humans.

    #1146735

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Corn, peanuts, Mustard and Quiona are part of the mesorah controversy

    #1146736

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ZD, that potato bread is chometz. No need to asser because of kitniyos.

    CB, maybe they don’t give a hechsher on peanut oil because they are machmir on the “mesorah controversy”.

    I want to know one thing: how many of the kitniyos chumra complainers have actually gone through the sugya, starting from the gaonim and going through all of the poskim who have written about it through the generations, to dismiss the machmirim as unnecessarily harsh?

    #1146737

    akuperma
    Participant

    “Potato bread” includes wheat flour (check the ingredients). “Corn bread” traditionally did not include wheat, and no one has managed to produce a bread usually coco or coffee beans.

    Chocolate (similar to corn and potatoes) are American in origin, and while coffee is African in origin, it didn’t become widespread in Europe until the period of the achronim.

    Quinoa is American in origin and didn’t become common on North America until recently, and reasonable aruge whether to treat it like corn or like potatoes (though if one looks, there are online bread recipes for it).

    If you held that you eat only foods with a mesorah going back to ancient times, none of the American foods would be allowed, and neither would coffee or sugar, which entered our cuisine post-biblically.

    #1146738

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Potato Bread in the store is Chometz as is Corn Bread. Its only because that how they make it

    However it doesnt have to be, they could bake them without being Chometz

    Continuing to read Wikipedia on Quinoa

    As a chenopod, quinoa is closely related to species such as beetroots, spinach and tumbleweeds.

    Wild rice is another example of people making things Kitynot that isnt. Wild rice is a GRASS not a rice, the only thing it has in common with rice is the name and it sort of looks like rice, but its a GRASS

    #1146739

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “As a chenopod, quinoa is closely related to species such as beetroots, spinach and tumbleweeds.”

    Still not a Berry. And still does not deflect the reason why some will say that the chashash of kitniyos applies. Obviously there are differences if kitniyos should be extended to include, but for that ask your own Rov, if you have one.

    “Potato Bread in the store is Chometz as is Corn Bread. Its only because that how they make it”

    SO then, how common is Potato Bread without flour? Your proof was from potato bread near the frank buns. But those all have flour.

    But there are some who do not eat potatoes on pesach, what is your response to that?

    Mustard being considered kitnyos is not “new”, The same with wild Rice.

    What the Oruch Hashulchan says about those who are Mefakfek or Meikel on kitnyos is that they are testifying about themselves that “Ayn bohem yiras shomayim veyiras chet, v’ayn beki’in b’darchei Torah.” (O’C 453.4)

    #1146740

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And still does not deflect the reason why some will say that the chashash of kitniyos applies. Obviously there are differences if kitniyos should be extended to include, but for that ask your own Rov, if you have one.

    the OU and the Star K both allow Quinoa. In fact the OU did a complete investigation into Quiona and even went down to Ecuador and saw exactly how it is cultivated. You can read about it in the OU magazine they had an entire article last year or 2 years ago (I think, but it was very recent)

    Anyone can assur anything, It takes a Talmid Chacham to actually mutar something.

    There really isnt much differnece between Cake and Bread. There is a differnence but its not huge. Potato Starch cake and cookies is very common, you can make a bread in a similar way

    #1146741

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    ZD,

    You will note I did not say the Quinoa is assur, I said that there are those who are makpid, and they do have a real basis to do so. Your quote from Wikipedia does not respond to their reasons.

    Please try to provide a reputable halachic source for your comments about things that are not kitnios. Wikipedia is not a source, nor is Google. And accepted halacha seforim (I am not talking about contemporary seforim) contradict whatever you have been saying.

    “There really isnt much differnece between Cake and Bread.”

    Yes there is. Even the basic bracha is different.

    “Potato Starch cake and cookies is very common”

    Only by Pesach, as Kosher for Pesach. You want to consider something ossur as a chashash chometz because of something made specifically for pesach??

    #1146742

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I quoted from the OU magazine and the Star-K and the O-U on the package (You have to buy the ones that have been koshered for passover, you just cant buy any old Quiona package)

    rav moshe allowed Peanuts

    They could make Potato cookies and cakes all year round, but they dont because its too expensive, but there is no reason you cant and yes you could bake a bread the same way

    #1146743

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Bottom line is that kitniyos is not Chametz. If someone wants to equate joy of Pesach with how much new kitniyos they can deny themselves, be my guest. I don’t understand it.

    #1146744

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    No, kitniyos is not chometz, but still assur for Ashkenazim.

    From the Shaarei Teshuvah linked above:

    ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???

    #1146745

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    We arent debating if Kitnyot is permitted, but about the ever expanding world of Kiniyot.

    I am not debating if one should eat Kitnyot, but rather the expanding defination which is really mocking the whole minhag .

    #1146746

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Have you actually gone through the sugya to know that the poskim who asser certain foods are making a mockery of the minhag?

    #1146748

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “We arent debating if Kitnyot is permitted, but about the ever expanding world of Kiniyot. “

    And yet as proof for this you mentioned items that have always been considered kitniyos.

    As far as your attitude, I refer you to the aforementioned Oruch Hashulchan.

    #1146749

    MDG
    Participant

    “No, kitniyos is not chometz, but still assur for Ashkenazim.”

    That should be “assur for Ashkenazim to eat.”

    #1146750

    MDG
    Participant

    ZD wrote:

    “Corn was not available in Europe. Its a totally american crop and was brought back to Europe after the Europeans came to the new world”

    and wrote:

    “Wild rice is a GRASS not a rice, the only thing it has in common with rice is the name and it sort of looks like rice….”

    While American corn was a new product in Europe, the word corn/korn was an old word which meant the staple grain. Notice that the consonant sounds are similar in corn and grain. I heard that they have the same Latin root. Because of the name, American corn was doomed from the start. It was associated with wheat, oats, or whatever chamets grain European people ate. Had they called it “maiz”, which is what the American natives called it, it might have had a chance.

    #1146751

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    MDG

    I did hear that Maize (American Corn) was mistaken for something else and became Kitnyot

    Maize is not a Legume

    #1146752

    MDG
    Participant

    ZD,

    Either way, there was some mix up. But it seems to me that eventually American corn would have made the kiniyot list. It’s can be used like a grain as least as good as anything else on the kitniyot list.

    #1146753

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    I do not think there is anyone who does not agree that corn is kitniyos.

    Rice is not a legume either.

    #1146754

    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, I don’t eat kitniyot. I’m referring to the ever expanding list. The OP wants to add coffee and chocolate. Ten years ago it was Qenoa. What is the obsession with adding to the list?

    #1146755

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Corn is a very versatile crop. Its uses vary from grain like item (Corn Bread, Corn Muffins etc) to Sweetners (High Fructose Corn Syrup) to Gasoline (Ethanol)

    I dont think any other Kityot can be used as a sweetner or gasoline.

    All your cars have some Ethanol in them

    #1146756

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    The people the Oruch Hashulchan is referring to like to allege thatthere is an ever increasing kitmniyot list.

    A commenter made some type of claim, that it takes a Talmud Chochom to be matter something. Well it is clear to everyone that the complainers about the alleged expansion of the kitniyos list and who are averring that certain items, such as wild rice, corn and mustard are not part of the gezairakh of kitniyos are not remotely talmidei chachomim.

    #1146758

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    LC, there is a legitimate shailah about the definition of kitniyos and what falls under that category. Those who hold that the minhag wasn’t limited to specific species hold that if something has the characteristics of kitniyos, it falls under the issur. The “ever expanding list” is simply a matter of some species which weren’t eaten until recently, and are subject to analysis of whether or not they fit the characteristics of kitniyos and are therefore assur. It is a legitimate halachah shailah, nothing more or less, certainly nothing sinister.

    The OP, as I understand her, was simply asking why, as the powdered form resembles flour, (perhaps she also meant since they are called beans) they don’t fit that category. She wasn’t trying to asser anything, just asking a question.

    Of course, despite their name, they’re botanically not beans, but as I linked, the Shaarei Teshuvah brings one opinion (which we don’t pasken like) which actually assers coffee because of its resemblance to a bean.

    #1146759

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “No, kitniyos is not chometz, but still assur for Ashkenazim.”

    That should be “assur for Ashkenazim to eat.”

    Not only should it be assur for Ashkenazim to eat, it is assur for Ashkenazim to eat.

    #1146760

    golfer
    Participant

    Rice can be used as a sweetener.

    Ever heard of brown rice syrup?

    #1146761

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    My local supermarket was advertising Quinoa Sushi

    #1146762

    golfer
    Participant

    That’s just great.

    I was wondering how my family would survive 8 days without sushi.

    Moaning and clutching their bellies and lamenting, “zacharnu ess ha’dagah asher nochal…”

    #1146763

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Oh, come one, people can live without bread for eight (plus) days but not coffee or chocolate?

    Hence the “not serious answer” tag.

    (And yes, I understand that I “seriously answered” a joke in another thread, so you felt the need to do so here.)

    The Wolf

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