December 7, 2012 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #607321
What do you think?December 7, 2012 3:34 pm at 3:34 pm #911713WolfishMusingsParticipant
What do you think?
There is one. It just wasn’t canonized.
The WolfDecember 7, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #911714
Because it’s not Merumez in the Pasuk to write one.December 9, 2012 1:47 am at 1:47 am #911716peacefullMember
Don’t you think, if there was a need for one, wouldn’t they have found a Remez for that too??December 9, 2012 4:18 am at 4:18 am #911717rebdonielMember
Hanukah has Megillas Antiochus.
It is mentioned by R. Shimon Kayara, a Geon, in Halakhot Gedolot, and Rasag attributes it to the Maccabees themselves. The geonim held in high regard and believed it to be authored by Tannaim of Beis Hillel and Beis Shammai.
Italian synagogues would read this on Hanukah, and in the Baladi nusach of Temanim, they still read it as part of the davening. R’ Yahya ben Yosef Zalih, in 1715, wrote that this megillah was read after the Haftorah on Shabbos Chanukah, and he considered its reading an important part of the mitzvah of Pirsumei Nissah.
The Machzor Kaffa, published in 1735 in the Crimea, says that this should be read during Mincha on Shabbos Chanukah after Kaddish Titkabal.
I see no reason why this text couldn’t be recited on Shabbos Chanukah, either during Mincha or Shacharis (similar to Koheles). Obviously, there are no brachos, but I don’t see how this could be a problem.December 9, 2012 5:48 am at 5:48 am #911718
The simple answer to your question is that the story of Chanukah took place after the time of the Anshei Knesses Hagedolah, who sealed the Tanach. Therefore, any books that were written, could not be included in Tanach and did not gain the status as a Sefer Kodesh. So, alothough there is a a Megilas Antiyoches, it does not have the status of our five migilos hakdoshos.December 9, 2012 6:09 am at 6:09 am #911719rebdonielMember
It is not scriptural, but historically, there is basis for its recitation. Koheles was not even considered canonical by some sages.December 9, 2012 6:28 am at 6:28 am #911720
Another reason that davka Purim requires a megilah is because the nissim were concealed under the guise of nature. When nissim are hidden, you need to see the “big picture”, hence a megillah. Indeed that is why you cannot miss even one word of the megillah!
Chanukah was open nissim that cannot be explained under the guise of nature. The nissim were undeniable!
This explains also why Pessach has no need for megilah reading either.
Furthermore, the megillah is the only “ritual” that connects us to the ness of Purim, that is the only pirsuma nissa of Purim.
However, on Chunkah we already have a “ritual” that commemorates the ness of Chanukah – the lighting of the menorah, that is the pirsuma nisa of Chanukah.December 9, 2012 2:45 pm at 2:45 pm #911721
If there was a need then Heshem would have been Meramez it, not that they would have found one had they really wanted to. Drashos aren’t playdoe.
If the Megillas Antiyochos is not part of Kesavim, then to read it as kesavim is a big problem, the same as Ben Sira.December 9, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #911722
“This explains also why Pessach has no need for megilah reading either.”
The reason we do not need a megilla for pesach is because its miracles were written in the Torah and we read those sections of the Torah on the first and seventh days.
Besides, we do read a megilla on pesach – shir hashirim.December 9, 2012 4:09 pm at 4:09 pm #911723
The reason why there is no real Megillah and it’s attempt to copy the real ones is not read is simple. Nations of long ago would revel in war, fighting, combat. That was their pastime, their glory. Reading material (whether real of fake) then was only about warfare and battle. That was the definitely not the Jewish way. To read these works and revel in these matters would be playing right back into the misyavnim’s hands.
We had to do what was required, not that we’re a nation of soldiers, warriors. Indeed we are ?????, ????? but ?????? and ??????. So right after the fighting and nissim, they threw away their weapons and shields and went right back to Torah and Avodah. Jewish people are not the ones generally to be found using the sword. We do it as an emergency measure only, generally accompanied the the other two as well, ????? and ?????. We certainly do not revel in these matters, it’s not the Yiddishe pastime, we have something else.December 9, 2012 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #911724
“Indeed we are ?????, ????? but ?????? and ??????. So right after the fighting and nissim, they threw away their weapons and shields and went right back to Torah and Avodah.”
Perhaps that is what should have been done but it is not what took place.
After the Chanuka Story, The Chasmonaim continued fighting and established a kingdom which ruled the land for many, many years of military based rulership.
In fact, the kingdom was brought down by all the fighting, when the Romans were called in to settle a dispute between brothers.December 9, 2012 5:00 pm at 5:00 pm #911725zahavasdadParticipant
While Chanuka occured after the Canonization, Chazal were not to fond of the Hasmoneam.
While the original Maccabees were Tzadikkim, the later ones were not. Not only did they usurp the kingship they also killed many RabbanimDecember 9, 2012 5:08 pm at 5:08 pm #911726icedMember
ZK: Very well stated.
Which is why Judaism eschews the frei attempts of histroical revisionism in portraying Chanuka as primarily some sort of military holiday. The reason Chazal instituted the yom tov celebrating the miracle of eight days, and made it an eight day yom tolv rather than something celebrating military achievments, is precisely because of the spiritual not physical.December 9, 2012 5:46 pm at 5:46 pm #911727
The Ikker Pirsumei Nisa is about the Ness of the oil. We thank Hashem for the Yeshua as well, but Chanuka was not established because of it. There were other Milchamos that we won. This one stood out because of the Ness of the Menora.
Purim, on the other hand, is all about the turn of events. On Purim we remember and focus on the Vinahapochu.
The Kriah on Pesach is not equivalent to Megilla, because it is not from the Mitzvos Hayom. Besides, reading about Ribis, although it mentions Yetzias Mitzraim, is a far cry from reading Parshas Shmos through Beshalach.
On Pesach we don’t need a Megilla or a Chiyuv Kriah because we have Pesach Matza and Marror, and there is a Mitzva to be Marbe Bessipur Yetzias Mitzraim. But mostly as I said, on Purim the whole point is Vinahapochhu, which is all about the turn of events.December 9, 2012 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #911728
HaLeiVi – ” We thank Hashem for the Yeshua as well, but Chanuka was not established because of it.”
Indeed, in T”R “my chanukak” (Rashi – al eza ness kvauha – for which ness was chanukah established) chazal answer the question by elaborating about the ness hashemen, making THAT the ikar ness.
However, in the Al Hanissim, there is hardly (if any) mention of the ness hashemen, rather ONLY the ness hamilchoma, making THAT the ikar ness!
The Meiri on Shabbos holds that the first day’s lighting of the menorah was to commemorate the nitzochon hamilchoma. (Which BTW is an answer to the B.Y.’s kasha).
As such, the pisuma nisa of the first day’s lighting covers the ness hamilchoma too.December 9, 2012 6:33 pm at 6:33 pm #911729
Sof Davar, You’re completely right, I was referring to the Tzadikim support of that campaign. As zahavasdad so well stated.December 9, 2012 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #911730
One interesting point I noted, it has been some time since I peeked into that writing. There is a MAJOR difference between that and the rest of Kisvei Kodesh. Whereas almost every battle in Tanach was done and over with a passuk or two, here, if I remember correctly, almost the whole thing describes war, strategies, elephants, chariots etc. The campaign against Shichon is alluded to by a quarter passuk, Og is afforded almost one entire passuk. The war of b’nei Yaakov (if true) is not recorded at all. This work is entirely (at least most) of battle, armies, warring. No, not the Yiddishe folklore.December 9, 2012 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #911731
I didn’t forget about Biyemei Matisyahu but I’m saying that the Yom Tov was established because of the Ness of the Ner. If not for that Ness this Yeshua would have gone the way of the rest of them. It would have been celebrated until the time when we forgot the rest of Megilas Taanis.
Obviously, now that we celebrate Chanuka, of course we thank Hashem for the Ness of winning the war. The Ness that stood out and makes This Yeshua different and special is the Ness of the Menora, but when it comes to being grateful and thanking Hashem, we thank Him for saving and helping us, rather than skipping that and thanking for a candle burning eight days.
A side point, the Meiiri is not a Terutz for the Beis Yosef’s Kasha by the way. He asks that Kasha and that is what he answers.December 9, 2012 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #911732
HaLeiVi – The Ness that stood out and makes This Yeshua different and special is the Ness of the Menora, but when it comes to being grateful and thanking Hashem, we thank Him for saving and helping us, rather than skipping that and thanking for a candle burning eight days.
The Gra”ch explains that the days of chanukah are “yemei hallel v’hoydoya” (as we say “L’hodos u’lehallel”) that hoydoya is when a person’s life is saved (arbah tzrichim l’hodos) – going on ness hamilchoma, while hallel is for a ness that is “extra”, that Hashem showed us His love, beyond what we need to survive – going on ness hashemen.
Chanukah was established for BOTH: l’hodos, u’lehalel!
(Therefore in Modim, a time of hoydoya, we say the Al Hanissim about ness hamilchoma davka).
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