September 18, 2017 8:28 am at 8:28 am #1366054
With all the discussion about women being removed from pictures, this is the reason why they should remain
Look at this picture of the Shevet Levi looking at his wife. Look at his face and how much he loves her and is happy to be with her . We can all learn alot from this pictureSeptember 18, 2017 10:07 am at 10:07 am #1366073MParticipant
But are the rest of us really on his madreiga?!September 18, 2017 10:21 am at 10:21 am #1366158
But are the rest of us really on his madreiga?!
So you’re saying we shouldn’t learn from a gadol because we’re not on his madreiga?
I think you missed the point.September 18, 2017 10:31 am at 10:31 am #1366168
A godol and his wife were outside when someone snapped a picture of them. I don’t see the godol or his wife attempting to impart a point by not having (the ability to?) run away from the photographer.September 18, 2017 10:41 am at 10:41 am #1366174
You also missed the pointSeptember 18, 2017 10:51 am at 10:51 am #1366198GadolhadorahParticipant
What is “the point”…..the inyan of visual images of a husband/wife together somehow triggering inappropriate thoughts, pritzus or even mundane worries about some as of tzinius has been hijacked by the churmah crowd beyond any rational understanding. While we obviously try to avoid photos or images that are designed to draw attention or highlight some inappropriate visuals, normal day-to-day imagery of normal, healthy relationships would provide a real positive input to all of us, whatever “medrega” we are on and make us aspire to move up the ladder if necessary.September 18, 2017 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1366221
Meno, It is true I didn’t address your later point. But I addressed the point of the title.September 18, 2017 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1366229
No, Slominer, I think you still missed it. We can learn a lot by watching gedolim, even if they aren’t “attempting to impart a point”.September 18, 2017 11:11 am at 11:11 am #1366228chatzkalParticipant
Why don’t you ask the Shevet Levi’s son or other talmidim what he held about pictures of woman in frum media? While your point is well taken and as any true tzadik would he had the utmost love and respect for his wife I’m not sure he would’ve been happy about using a picture of him to prove a point he may not have agreed with.September 18, 2017 11:33 am at 11:33 am #1366247ChadGadyaParticipant
Sorry OP, I’ve looked at the picture, and as far as I can see he is looking at her just as any married couple can be seen looking at each other countless times a day on the streets of any jewish town. I’m just not getting this “amazing love and happiness” you seem to be reading into his face. Are you sure your impressions aren’t just a subjective projection of how you feel he’s probably feeling?September 18, 2017 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1366254
People do not normally take pictures of Gedolim without asking (And the only people who would would want something for misuse) and this picture does appear to have been taken at a normal distance (Not some super Telephoto lense from a mile away). its likely the Shevet Levi agreed to this picture.
I belive this rebbitzen was he second wife and he did not want her to feel that way.
The gemorah in Brachot discuss all the things we can learn from Gedolim from everyday activities .September 18, 2017 2:03 pm at 2:03 pm #1366311
All that you proved was that a man should love his wife. I agree. But you didn’t prove that woman should be in any picture, wedding or magazine. (I am not giving my opinion in either because I don’t want anyone to start accusing me of anything)September 18, 2017 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #1366481LightbriteParticipant
Didn’t even see the picture, but I agree that showing healthy happy role model couples, like the Shevet Levi and his wife, is positive for us to see!
Honestly it wasn’t until I started “seeing” happy healthy couples that I realized being married can be a truly great thing.
Amen!!! Thanks for sharing Zavahasdad 🙂September 18, 2017 6:02 pm at 6:02 pm #1366498
#1 who sais he agrees to have his picture advertized 2) did you learn all 4 parts of shulcen urech that you know what halochos is behind not showing . well learn even huazer simon 20 with nose kailim and a certain rema and bais shmuel there…then come backSeptember 18, 2017 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1366501
why dont you learn thru his response seforim and you’ll see hes agsinstSeptember 18, 2017 6:21 pm at 6:21 pm #1366507
mr gadol hador please learn thoroghly even huazer chapter 20 then come back with your lomdesSeptember 18, 2017 6:57 pm at 6:57 pm #1366523👑RebYidd23Participant
Could you clarify that?September 18, 2017 9:47 pm at 9:47 pm #1366579JosephParticipant
Please read this teshuva — and when done let me know whether anyone still thinks the Shevet HaLevi would be happy to disseminate a photo of his wife – or any other woman, for that matter:
Rav Shmuel HaLevi Wosner (Shevet HaLevi 4:1.2):
Question: Concerning the topic of tznius (modesty) regarding the fact that women learn and regularly drive cars.
Answer: From experience I learned that this is something that is proper to clearly forbid. That is because learning to drive has already caused and continues to cause pritzus (immodesty) and this is diametrically opposite to the Jewish value that the honor of the Jewish woman (princess) is to remain inside (Tehillim 45:14). Similarly the driving itself is absolutely the opposite of the Jewish value that the honor of the Jewish woman (princess) is to remain inside (Tehilim 45:14).The woman who exposes herself through driving in the market and streets before the eyes of everyone is actively and passively causing others to sin. “And it is not the normal way of a woman to be riding” (Pesachim 3a-b). And even though the reality of a riding on an animal is not totally equivalent to our topic of driving a car – nevertheless it is not the normal way of a woman and the two are similar in many ways that it difficult to explain in writing.September 18, 2017 10:01 pm at 10:01 pm #1366585
The rebbitzen is not driving, She is sitting on a benchSeptember 18, 2017 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1366591WolfishMusingsParticipant
But are the rest of us really on his madreiga?!
You have to be on a certain madrega to love your wife?
The WolfSeptember 18, 2017 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1366592LightbriteParticipant
Ooops… sorry typo, I meant Zahavasdad 🙂September 19, 2017 6:50 am at 6:50 am #1366655WinnieThePoohParticipant
I’m not commenting on whether is is appropriate to publish photos of women or not, but I would like t o comment on the premise that this picture is a reason to permit:
Yes it is a touching picture, but still, do you really learn what a happy, healthy marriage is like from looking at a picture of a husband and wife? even people in bad marriages can pose with smiles. And if one says that R’ Wosner’s expression is showing how to relate to one’s wife, then it would technically be enough just to show his face, with a caption stating that he was looking at his wife at the time of the picture.
If one wants happy, healthy role models than the proper way would be, if possible, to spend time in such a couple’s home. Stories about how gedolim treated their wives can also teach something, much more clearly than a picture, which is subject to the interpretation of the viewer, can.September 19, 2017 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1366671👑RebYidd23Participant
Positive pictures affect people just like negative pictures do. One learns more bad behaviors by seeing them in real life than by seeing pictures, but we don’t allow certain pictures in our homes or publications for the same reason that some pictures should be shown.September 19, 2017 9:09 am at 9:09 am #1366684
And if one says that R’ Wosner’s expression is showing how to relate to one’s wife, then it would technically be enough just to show his face, with a caption stating that he was looking at his wife at the time of the picture.
The picture is inspiring. The picture and caption that you describe don’t sound nearly as inspiring. Inspiring things often lose their effect if you explain them too much.September 19, 2017 9:28 am at 9:28 am #1366696
I don’t understand the premise here. Why do you need a picture of a happy couple to teach you to love your spouse? This picture or any other picture of a happy couple doesn’t teach you anything about marriage. All it shows is a husband and a wife sitting/standing together. Which like WinnieThePoo said, can be even by a couple with a bad marriage.September 19, 2017 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1366703
Why do you need a picture of a happy couple to teach you to love your spouse?
Why do many shuls hire a professional shaliach tzibur for yomim noraim? The words are all the same. I’m sure they could find someone in the shul who can get up there and say the words correctly.
The answer is that a good shaliach tzibur can be inspiring, and can therefore cause one to daven better.
The same can be said about this picture. It’s not teaching a lesson which you couldn’t learn anywhere else, it’s inspiring (or at least it is to some people). Knowing the right thing to do is very often not enough. You need something to inspire you to do it.September 19, 2017 10:18 am at 10:18 am #1366704
There is a famous Gemorah in Brachot where a talmid followed his rebbe to the most inappropriate places and when confronted the student said, This too is torah and I must learn it.
Everything a Gadol does should be a teachable moment, And not just his shiur , You can learn from the way they conduct themselves in normal every day occurances.
Nothing a gadol does is wasteful or useless even a picture from a moment in time and we should learn from that momentSeptember 19, 2017 10:34 am at 10:34 am #1366765GAONParticipant
WinnieThePooh – Good point.
However, what we could learn from the picture (not the looks though) is that Rav Wosner ZTL, as busy and masmid as he was, he still took his time off to take a walk spend time with his wife.September 19, 2017 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #1366928
Meno, if you find it aspiring, good for you. I personally don’t feel that way. Even so, it doesn’t prove the OP’s point that we need these pictures. We don’t need good chazzans but we need A chazzan. A nice one makes davening nicer. A picture which could be problematic, because we don’t want to show pictures of woman, isn’t needed. It is at most a nice thing.September 19, 2017 2:15 pm at 2:15 pm #1366948GadolhadorahParticipant
I cannot think of a more “over-analyzed” photo than the one shown here…you can probably put a million different captions on the photo to make whatever point you wish to make and have some basis for your spin…September 19, 2017 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1367336catch yourselfParticipant
Inventing absurd Chumros that were not followed in previous generations by even the most scrupulous and pious Talmidei Chachamim is not the Derech HaTorah, it is a perversion of the Derech HaTorah.
בל תוסיף פן תגרעSeptember 19, 2017 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #1367390
There weren’t Kodaks or cars in most previous generations. It’s very hard to justify calling those in more recent generations of Talmidei Chachamim and rabbinical leadership, who support these stances, as בל תוסיף or being lacking in Derech HaTorah.September 19, 2017 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1367407GAONParticipant
ZD – “There is a famous Gemorah in Brachot where a talmid followed his rebbe to the most inappropriate places and when confronted the student said, This too is torah and I must learn it.”
Sorry, but that talmid had already learned EVERYTHING else he can from his rebbi, thus was still missing that particular guidance and, had no other way of obtaining that knowledge. When you will first learn all the obvious and still need to know something then we will worry about the Gadol. You can start with learning his seforim.
Though nothing wrong with looking but do not make out of it a “must”…
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