April 18, 2021 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1965821Anonymousomeone1Participant
Jews believe in the death sentence while liberals don’t and believe that murderer is bad while liberals don’t (abortion) you are welcome to add on to this or argue of why you think otherwiseApril 19, 2021 12:28 am at 12:28 am #1965832DovidBTParticipant
Liberals believe that black people should get preferential treatment under the law. The Torah says that laws should be applied equally.April 19, 2021 6:55 am at 6:55 am #1965840lakewhutParticipant
Liberals let murderers onto the street.
Liberal encourage terrorists
Liberals support abominationsApril 19, 2021 9:12 am at 9:12 am #1965938
The whole thing is false. Liberalism believes, everyone should be treated equaly. When someone did not have the background and education by discrimination and allowance be made. The holy Torah is for equal treatment for everyone. A servant is provided a home and support. One who buys a jewish servant buys a master for himself. A non-jewish servant was converted. Sometimes we go overboard for equal treatment.April 19, 2021 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1965946truth2powerParticipant
1) Jews believe in the death sentence applied by Beis Din/Sanhedrin in the times of the Beis Hamikdosh, exceptionally rarely. Not the disaster that the death penalty has been in the USA over the past century.
2) Liberals do believe murder is bad. As for abortion, you might be surprised how nuanced the halachic approach to the issue is if you actually look into it. In some cases much closer to the ‘liberal’ position than the conservative one.April 19, 2021 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1965961
BTW, punishment for bad doing is not against liberalism. It is required by society to force proper behavior. I think conservatism, being selfish, is against the Torah. The government is there to provide a jump start for everyone.April 19, 2021 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1965976ParticipantParticipant
@laskern don’t know if you’ve checked the news in the past decade. liberalism is far from treating everyone equally. it’s about treating perverts equally and coercing others to do their will . perverts = hey it’s a free country. they can do what they want. bakers = so do what the perverts want.April 19, 2021 11:50 am at 11:50 am #1965981besalelParticipant
With respect to the death sentence, many liberals I know believe that in a world operated by the sanhedrin we can have the death penalty (once every seventy years) but in this terribly flawed justice system, the death penalty should never play a part.April 19, 2021 11:51 am at 11:51 am #1965983catch yourselfParticipant
This is stupid.
Neither “liberalism” nor “conservatism” aligns perfectly with the Torah.
It’s very easy for both liberals and conservatives to “prove” that theirs is the Torah way, and the others are against the Ratzon Hashem.
I have no problem with people arguing about liberalism vs. conservatism. Just let’s please not pretend that a debate about US ideology somehow involves the Torah.April 19, 2021 1:16 pm at 1:16 pm #1966014
Without saying eithe side is like the Torah, i would like to make a few small observations.
1) The hot topic now of “equity” is very, very far removed from equality. One might even say it is the complete opposite.
2) Repulicans are not more selfish than democrats. certainly not the left leaning that fall into communism. Conservatism is not selfish, nor is liberalism being generous. And generosity withothers resources iss actually selfish.
3) What is going on in society these days scarily veers into what Chazal describe as occuring in the dor hamabul which led to hineni mashisum. And into the actions of the Shiva Ammamim.
4) The sheva Mitzvos include setting up courts and clearly include capital punishment, which does not seems to follow the dinim of sanhedrin. R Moshe ZT’L has a letter to Governor Coumo about Capital Punishment. Read that before making your comments here.April 19, 2021 1:17 pm at 1:17 pm #1966021besalelParticipant
catch yourself: very well said.April 19, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1966084torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
Reb E, it seems your whole political view is based on the premises that “republicans are selfish”, and Democrats care about everyone. Please explain what you mean, -in terms of set policy- that leads you to this conclusion.April 19, 2021 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1966097
No idea what this new thread is about, but seems the person starting it is implying that whatever it is Republican’s support is all Torah true stuff. Guess, you don’t need Yeshiva to learn the Torah, you can just go to the GOP convention and get everything you need there.April 19, 2021 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #1966123
torahvaluesoverparty, I don’t see the Relublicans helping the poor by job training, education loans and tax cuts for the middle class.April 19, 2021 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1966142
DovidBT -“The Torah says that laws should be applied equally.”
Some people should have Eved Cananny.
In the US, it’s illegal!
So the Torah doesn’t believe in Equity or Equality!April 19, 2021 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1966139ParticipantParticipant
more smart stuff from ens.April 19, 2021 9:13 pm at 9:13 pm #1966164
Well I guess the Republican party supported Trump, a billionaire, who stiffed many a worker under the guise of bankruptcy laws, directly keneged Halacha. Actually, very severe halacha the GOP and many of you apparently celebrated him violating.
So lets quit with the who is against the Torah.
These nonsensical debates here are an embarrassment.April 20, 2021 8:25 am at 8:25 am #1966214MadeAliyahParticipant
@emes-nisht-sheker, when you said you have ‘no idea what this new thread is about’, we believed you.
There was no need to prove it.April 20, 2021 10:40 am at 10:40 am #1966213dovrosenbaumParticipant
HaRav HaGaon Avigdor Miller, zt”l
If the temptation for immorality is uncontrollable, how can we blame society for its descent into wickedness?
I have to say that it’s not uncontrollable; the fact is that up till recently, and even today, most people are controlling it. The fact is that what’s depicted in the newspapers and in the other media is not a picture of life; it’s a perverted and crippled picture of what’s in the minds of the writers. Actually many people are living normally; as you walk down blocks and blocks of Irish houses and Italian houses, they’re living more or less normally. They’re living married lives, and they are controlling themselves; otherwise there’d be mayhem, there’d be murder on all sides. Human beings are controlling themselves. Does it mean every Irish man is perfectly perfect all his life? This I wouldn’t say. But in general people are controlling themselves because that is the only way for civilized people to live.
And therefore, we can’t say that the world has lost its control. Of course the liberals are doing their best to break down everything. But despite them, human nature abhors disorder; human nature likes a certain amount of decency, and therefore it will continue no matter what they do.
Of course we have to try to stop the torrent of wickedness; we have to attempt to abolish pornography and so on, but that doesn’t mean that we’re losing the fight. We’ll never lose that fight; it’s inherent in human nature. There’s no society that ever abolished morality entirely; impossible. The Roman society, even the Greek society, even though they had certain perversions, but they had certain principles; you have to know a society that’s going to break down all the restrictions is going to decay and fall apart.
And if America won’t stop this headlong flight into perversion, who knows what’s going to happen. Let’s hope the Italians and the Irish will win out against the Jewish liberals. Jewish liberals are doing the best to ruin America. I say the Jewish liberals – the truth is that the Orthodox Jews should help a little more than they’re doing; the Jewish Orthodox should identify with American scene and they should all join in the fight against pornography, against gays, and against women’s rights which really means immorality; women’s rights mean mixed dormitories in the colleges, mixed barracks in the military. The United States military has already yielded long before the ERA was passed – right now military barracks are mixed.
And so, it’s up to us to speak up and write letters; we must write to congressmen and protest constantly. And not to vote for liberals! Don’t vote for a liberal! Reagan is running now; it’s an opportunity. He’s a decent man. Of course I’m not going to put an OK on him and say a kosher l’mehadrin min hamehadrin, but as far as goyishe candidates go, everybody should work for Reagan. Forget about being a Democrat, forget about your party affiliation, forget about the private deals. Some institutions make private deals with the politicians and they sell their vote or the votes of the Jews; don’t listen to them! Make it your business that the Jewish people should vote for Reagan – he’s more conservative and more decent than the others – because we have to fight for decency. It’s our big job today.
TAPE # 308 (March 1980)April 20, 2021 10:43 am at 10:43 am #1966298☕️coffee addictParticipant
“The holy Torah is for equal treatment for everyone.”
Wow Reb eliezer,
I didn’t know your wife puts on tefillin, and learns Torah like men do
And I would hope you’re not going to do the עבודה if only כהנים can do it
I don’t know where you get that the Torah is saying everyone is equal
Oh wait, didn’t Korach say that? What ever happened to that guy?April 20, 2021 10:44 am at 10:44 am #1966306DovidBTParticipant
These nonsensical debates here are an embarrassment.
That statement is biased against people who are incapable of using common sense due to being oppressed.April 20, 2021 12:16 pm at 12:16 pm #1966343
david rosenbaum – what a long essay you published there. R’ Miller is not around to explain or expound on what he said, but since you quoted him I guess you can help explain this…
“They’re living married lives, and they are controlling themselves; otherwise there’d be mayhem, there’d be murder on all sides.”
So here are some statistics regarding murders in NYC from the FBI…
Ronald Reagan was President from 1981-1989 in that time, murders in NYC went from 2,228 in 1980 to 2,246 in 1989.
George HW Bush was president from 1989-1993 which during that time murders reached their high of 2,605 in 1990 and in 1993 was at 2,420.
Bill Clinton was president from 1993-2001 which saw in 2001 the murders decline to 960.
George W Bush was president from 2001-2009 which saw murders decline to 781.
Obama was 2009-2017, which saw murders reach their all time low of 550.
Interesting don’t you think, that under Regan and Bush Sr, murders did not decline. Even under Bush Jr. murders only declined 18%. On the other hand under Clinton they declined 60% and under Obama they declined 29%.
Like I said before, this debate is an embarrassment. If anything, the above would illustrate that liberal policies, at least at the national level, apparently result in less murder and mayhem an outcome that seems more aligned with the Torah then the relatively high level of murders that take place under Republicans.
If you prefer to get more specific with the data, the only President under which there was a substantial decline in the murder rate across the country was Bill Clinton. For the rest overall it remained pretty flat.April 20, 2021 12:41 pm at 12:41 pm #1966366DaMosheParticipant
You can’t look at things that individual people have done, you have to look at the stance of a group as a whole. While both Liberals and Conservatives have things which are wrong, I firmly believe that Liberals have more things wrong, and more severe.
There are 2 main issues that I look at – abortion and gay marriage. R’ Moshe Feinstein wrote straight out that abortion is murder. For those who will ask, “Then why doesn’t a person who purposely causes a miscarriage get the death penalty?”, I refer to you the Meiri. He said that killing an unborn child is such a major sin that even death can’t atone for it, so we don’t give the death penalty. Liberals have made abortion one of their main issues, and they fully support it. In Judaism, the only time abortion is allowed is when the fetus presents a danger to the health of another person (usually the mother, but can also be another fetus in cases of multiple pregnancies.)
Gay marriage is the other issue. I remember learning that according to one opinion, the final straw in the times of Noach that led to the flood was because they began writing marriage contracts between couples of the same gender. So this is what we’ve come to – we are as bad as that generation. This is one of the 7 mitzvos b’nei Noach, and incredibly, there are Jews who claim to be Orthodox who supported allowing it!April 20, 2021 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1966376dovrosenbaumParticipant
Religious people tend to be socially conservative and fiscally altruistic, in that they support programs that help people.
As a matter of morality and halacha, there is just no basis to support the sexual and moral degenracy that the left is promoting. None at all.April 20, 2021 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1966374
And yet most of the justices that voted to allow abortion in Roe V Wade were nominated by Eisenhower and Nixon, both Republicans.
And as to actual number of abortions performed in the US, since 1980 it has been in decline with probably the biggest decline during Clinton years and then the Obama years.
Once again, it is under Democrats that things like murder and abortion decline, things as you note like R’ Moshe wrote are straight out murder.April 20, 2021 3:19 pm at 3:19 pm #1966380The little I knowParticipant
I read your statistical report and could not stop laughing. Do you seriously believe there is any significance to your report? Pardon, but your ignorance is showing.
Statistics show that 99.8 percent of all people who died in United States in the past 50 years have eaten pickles.
Now, does a number like this mean anything at all?
Rather than looking at who was president, how about the local – state and city governments? Who was mayor? Who was police chief? What laws and policies were in place at those times. Maybe you will encounter some numbers and facts that have relevance. Otherwise, spare us your moronic presentations about correlational statistics.
I seem to understand your screen name a bit better. You are pitted; your comment is the pits.April 20, 2021 3:20 pm at 3:20 pm #1966381
The trend to extend abortion at will up to the time of birth, and beyond (yes, those are the words of your blackface wearing, Ralph Northam) is a key platform of the Democrat party. That is out an out murder.
In addition, the bigoted policy of equity and critical race theory are supported and promoted by the Democrat party as a whole. I frankly do not understand how those are different from the worst white supremacist except as to who the target is. And that it is supported wholeheartedly by the political party in charge.
Further the liberals actively limit the civil rights of people, not least amongst them the right to freely practice religion.April 20, 2021 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #1966382
Who likes irony?
Today Chuck edited Schumer annouces that today is a holiday because the federal governmaent is going legalize marijuana. Yesterday Biden said he was going to ban methol cigarettes and limit others.
Smoking is great when it addles the mind?
Is it irony, or is liberalsm spelled h-y-p-o-c-r-i-s-y?April 20, 2021 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1966384
You say “Ronald Reagan was President from 1981-1989 in that time, murders in NYC went from 2,228 in 1980 to 2,246 in 1989.
George HW Bush was president from 1989-1993 which during that time murders reached their high of 2,605 in 1990 and in 1993 was at 2,420.
Bill Clinton was president from 1993-2001 which saw in 2001 the murders decline to 960.”
Why dont you put in who was the mayor of NYC then? Because mayors have a lot more to do with policing indiviual cities than do the President?
Hint, murders were at abn all time high during the Dinkins years. Hardly a conservative.
They started a rapid decline with Gulianin, hardly a liberal.
Bloomberg was no liberla when he started office, and his policing policies were certainly not liberal.
Look where crimes against people have been going since DeBlasio has been mayor. The streets in NYC are scary again.April 20, 2021 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #1966386torahvaluesoverpartyParticipant
ENS so maybe you can explain how policies put in place to expand access to abortion, and supporting the My Body My Choice view, can possibly be linked to the decrease in actual abortions.April 20, 2021 5:10 pm at 5:10 pm #1966447
ENS -“These nonsensical debates here are an embarrassment”
The only embarrassment is your lack of Torah knowledge!
“Well I guess the Republican party supported Trump, a billionaire, who stiffed many a worker under the guise of bankruptcy laws, directly keneged Halacha. Actually, very severe halacha the GOP and many of you apparently celebrated him violating.
So lets quit with the who is against the Torah.”
The one issue that e/o agrees that applies, to Jews & Non-Jews, is Din Dmalchus applies to Money!
So you clearly see the people who Don’t keep the Torah are DemonCrats, Not Trump!
Why don’t you get your Torah knowledge from the Bais Medrash and Not from the Internet?!?April 20, 2021 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1966517
It is funny how inconsistent and incoherent the responses to my comment are.
Someone posted a statement from R’ Miller in 1980 where R’ Miller suggested that electing Democrats to the Presidency would result in an increase in murder. I posted statistics showing that the opposite happened. R’ Miller is not here to respond or expound on this further so I prefer to leave him out of this, but the statistics on murder are what they are. The person did not post a statement regarding the mayor so I did not feel a need to go there and to examine it at that level. That said, I did note, that across the US, during the Clinton years murder declined substantially. So based on that there seems to be a correlation between a liberal in office and less murders, not the opposite as was suggested.
Oh, btw, funny thing about Giuliani for those who want to go there… during his time as mayor he was very supportive of gay causes. He lived with a gay couple for a period of time as well as he marched proudly in their parade. Oh, what else… He supports (or at least supported back then) abortion rights. Based on comments here, support for abortion and gay rights are apparently the two fundamental tenets of liberalism and apparently they lead to more murder and the end of the world, yet again we find, that Giuliani, a liberal (apparently), saw the murder rate go down during his mayoral term.
Well hope you like the contradictions you have created and how twisted your reasoning really is.
It would be nice if at least I can excuse your ignorance of these matters because you are obviously spending the effort to spend your day learning Torah, but somehow I doubt that. Instead you sound like intellects molded by the likes of Hannity, Tucker, and Trump.April 20, 2021 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #1966522
Health – regarding money and dina dmaclchus, all I can say is, wow…
Somehow strict halacha in your view takes precedence over ethics. I guess ignoring the admonitions of the prophets (the Jewish ones) is pro the Torah. Even Beis Din when ruling on cases where strict halacha will result in injustice can rule otherwise.
Maybe we need to debate exactly what the Torah is and what it wants from us, because based on your statement supporting such injustice as being in-line with the Torah, I really don’t think you have any clue what the Torah wants from you or anyone. Maybe start with the famous statement of Hillel as that should help clue you in.April 20, 2021 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #1966536
ENS -“Somehow strict halacha in your view takes precedence over ethics.”
This statement of yours, just now, shows how little Torah you know!
People who follow the Torah, know that what ever the Torah/ Halacha says is the most Ethical!
It’s other Religions that think Ethics aren’t part of their Laws.
So what religion do you follow?!?April 20, 2021 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1966539MadeAliyahParticipant
@emes-nisht-sheker, just to clarify; are you suggesting that the Republicans are pro-gay and pro-abortion and the Democrats are against?April 20, 2021 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1966579
MadeAliyah – I did not suggest that. Rather I am suggesting the topic of this conversation thread is ridiculous and the very premise made is so obscure as to make the whole thing meaningless. Reality is very complex and not nearly as black and white as some make it out to be. A substantive debate of these issues can be had without the ridiculous hyperbole.
Further, I would suggest identifying as a conservative or liberal or democrat or republican in strong terms is what is against the Torah. Meaning, as a Jew your ethics should be formed based on what the Torah teaches you, not your political ideology. What I find increasingly is many Jews form their positions based on Republican thought and then try to interpret the Torah to support that position. Myself, I don’t need the positions of the Democrats or the Republicans to align with the Torah as I don’t see it my obligation to ensure non-Jews live according to the Torah (that is their obligation to follow Noahide law, not mine to impose it on them). I just see my role in politics to be Darchei Shalom, meaning that I will vote and push for policies that I think will help ensure our continued freedom and peace.April 20, 2021 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1966580
Health – so when Beis Din rules not following strict halacha because the outcome would not be just, what do you suggest that says about halacha (the Gemaara and Shulchan Aruch both admonish not to apply strict din in Beis Din, rather to use Pesharah). Or perhaps, your idea of the intercession of halacha and ethics is formed in ignorance.April 21, 2021 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1966712Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Health >> t what ever the Torah/ Halacha says is the most Ethical!
Emes >> not to apply strict din
it is a “controversial” idea indeed – if you apply Peshara, you dare to disregard the din! (I think, Sanhedrin 6). Maybe you can both clarify your position after reviewing what that daf says. Might lead to a more productive discussion.April 22, 2021 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #1967069
ENS & AAQ – Are you the same guy?
I’m sick of YWN allowing posters Multiple SN’s!
I think Ubiq has a Few.
Now to answer:
I’m sick and tired – teaching Am Haretzes Torah!
The reason that Peshara is recommended is because it creates Sholom between e/o.
But the Strict Halacha is the most Ethical!
Our Torah is the epitome of Ethics!
Go back to Yeshiva to learn some Torah before posting again!April 22, 2021 10:47 pm at 10:47 pm #1967294Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Health, I did not even express an opinion, just asked you to support your argument with sources rather than just state it multiple times. Even gave you a page reference.
Kotzker, I think, might support you. He asked why Hashem threw Emes to the ground when he had 2 melachim for and 2 against creating a person. Why not sholom who was also against? Because without emes, sholom is not a problem.April 22, 2021 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1967323CHOOSIDParticipant
Liberalism assur min hatorah (ayin commen sence)
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