October 12, 2010 10:39 pm at 10:39 pm #1133349
Being that I am a proud out of towner I can’t agree with this thread. Sorry. I feel that out of towners are less rude and actually give people the time of day. We don’t feel like we are in a race and we don’t feel the need to beep our horns if the person in front of us doesn’t cross the intersection exactly when the light turns green. I thank my parents every day for moving out of New York and I hope to raise my children here as well. I have heard a few times where an in town boy is looking for an out of town girl because “out of towners are known for middos.” (quote from a shadchan)
I’m not saying that New Yorkers are horrible. Chas vshalom. I know many New Yorkers that are wonderful people with fine middos. But I’m just saying that even thought New York has maalos there are many reasons why its’s not the best!October 12, 2010 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1133350
No one is saying that New York has all the advantages… but the advantages are so numerous they far outweigh whatever advantages their may be out of town.October 12, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #1133351
Sorry I can’t agreeOctober 12, 2010 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1133352
Listen not everyone can agree with everything. Nevertheless, all the numerous frum former out-of-towners now living all over New York, saw something compelling about it!October 12, 2010 10:48 pm at 10:48 pm #1133353
And what about all the New Yorkers who moved out of New York? They must have also seen something compelling about it.October 12, 2010 10:49 pm at 10:49 pm #1133354
Many out of town frum communities have been shrinking for years already, while New York is going strong — with an influx.October 12, 2010 10:51 pm at 10:51 pm #1133355
I’m not denying that the New York community is big. Some people have to realize that there is something good about not being so big too. People actually know you and there is warmth in the community and people actually care about each other.October 12, 2010 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #1133356
Despite all the rumors to the contrary (perhaps in secular circles?), in frum New York people actually know you and there is warmth in the community and people actually care about each other.October 12, 2010 10:59 pm at 10:59 pm #1133357
I’m not talking about rumors. I’ve been to New York more times than I can count and I have many relatives there. They don’t even know their neighbors. And no I don’t have strange relatives. I’ve been with New Yorkers in camp and sem and this is the impression I get.October 12, 2010 11:02 pm at 11:02 pm #1133358
That’s because they have 60 (or whatever) frum families living just on their block, while out of town you have just a handful. So, sure, OOT you will know all the neighbors; but in NY you’ll still know more neighbors than OOT — even if not all.October 12, 2010 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1133359MoqMember
I grew up in NY and need to take an epipen with me when I visit the big apple;
so much of everything, every is here and now and right now and is happening – the latest glatt kosher Iraqi food with a touch of portugese, the latest frum fashion that no one will even suspect you’re keeping all the rules of tzinius, the latest hock, latest gadgets that will put four million shiurim in the memory of your lexus that you will never listen to because you’re too busy fiddling with it ,trying to get your bluetooth to pick wifi…fast, fast, fast, move, move , move, cause if you don’t you’ll suddenly be weak, like, last week…Chani’s, Rivki’s , Bruchi’s, Shvigger’s, Esti’s, clothing boutique for those who the lifestyles of the rich & yeshivish…bang bang bang, like the endless rhythme of an edgar allan poe solliquiy, a never ending cacophony of the latest newest and best, of quantity and quantity, more and more and more and more…move move move…you don’t count if you have six beepers, a blackberry , a treo and iphone, all of course with mincha and zmanim…I felt like – that because everywhere was here, I was nowhere…
I guess that’s what people like about it.
I like things that run deep, not things that overflow. Things that are, not things that are trying to be.October 12, 2010 11:08 pm at 11:08 pm #1133360
What?October 13, 2010 12:50 am at 12:50 am #1133361kapustaParticipant
So what are we trying to establish here, OOT communities are not good?
I’m a NYer and its very nice, but the “best”? Probably not. As far as Shidduchim, I know some people look specifically for OOT (or OOT type) families because they are often more laid back. Not with Ruchniyus, but its ok if your child doesn’t have a complete designer wardrobe to compete with her classmates. Its ok to drive a Camry and not a Lexus. Find me that in NY.
No denying that NY has certain benefits, but each person needs to weigh whats important to them. Some do better in town, and some better OOT.
Oh, and as comfortable as NY is, its not Eretz Yisrael, and we had better not forget that.
(Sorry if I repeated anyones post, I didn’t read the whole thread)October 13, 2010 1:14 am at 1:14 am #1133362
Moq – Epi-Pen is for allergic reactions…
Kapusta – “Its ok to drive a Camry and not a Lexus. Find me that in NY.”
Maybe we run in different circles, but most of the people I know have no problem with Camrys.October 13, 2010 1:22 am at 1:22 am #1133363
Moq also was apparently in the wrong circles during his NY bout. He must’ve missed the scores of tmimusdik Yidden all over New York who seek no fame nor glory. They live simple, unfashionable, lives. They live in Boro Park, Flatbush, Williamsburg, and every other frum neighborhood.October 13, 2010 2:23 am at 2:23 am #1133364
miami isn’t all that great either it’s hot and humid in the summer, there’s A LOT of pritzus here (much less in north miami beach) and the food is more expensive hereOctober 13, 2010 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1133365justsmile613Participant
myfriend – the daled amos of ny is not the only enclave a LOT of frum people….and oot population is NOT shrinking at all, on the contrary it is expanding unbelievably..who can afford a home in ny these days???? unless you are loaded it is pretty much impossible….and there are alot of oot cities with EVERYTHING and more that you need to be a frum Jew .October 13, 2010 2:59 am at 2:59 am #1133366justsmile613Participant
Baltimore for example is an unbelievable communityOctober 13, 2010 3:09 am at 3:09 am #1133367
“unless you are loaded it is pretty much impossible”
….because every homeowner in NY is loaded.October 13, 2010 3:37 am at 3:37 am #1133368charliehallParticipant
My wife was born in Mexico City.October 13, 2010 3:41 am at 3:41 am #1133369charliehallParticipant
Unlike most cities in America, New York is gaining population. All five boroughs gained population in the 1980s, the 1990s, and the 2000s. New York is the place of opportunity — for Jews and for non-Jews.October 13, 2010 4:07 am at 4:07 am #1133370mybatMember
Mbachur, true Miami is hot and humid, but I said it would be my 3rd choice.
Charliehall, your wife was born in Mexico? Really? Why?October 13, 2010 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1133371
New York is the place of opportunity — for Jews and for non-Jews
with an 8.3% unemployment rateOctober 13, 2010 4:12 am at 4:12 am #1133372
with an 8.3% unemployment rate
Considering that the national unemployment rate is 9.6%, New York is doing relatively good.
Michigan 13.1%, California 12.4%, Florida 11.7%, Illinois 10.1%, New Jersey 9.6% Pennsylvania 9.2%, Connecticut 9.1%. (Hmm, not only is NY better than all these States, it seems the closer to New York they are, the lower the unemployment rate!)October 13, 2010 4:20 am at 4:20 am #1133373abcd2Participant
As a New yorker i can attest that while we are stable and growing it is only due to demand and large population. While chasidim explode in Kensington Bp and Willy The non-chasidish rate of growth has slowed down. It used to be if a person in flatbush five towns Queens etc.. had five kids 3-4 out of the five would stay within the five boroughs now it’s more like 2-3 out of five staying. There are very few non-chasidish schools with growing enrollment most others are large but stable.Out of town however is even worse with lakewood seeming as a tantalizing destination for anyone in learning. What I dont understand is cleveland has telz, chicago brisk and skokie baltimore Ner yisrael etc.. Why cant chavrusas just stay local why shlep out from the community you grew up in? all above listed places are true makom torahs,and to the parents that complain about losing their young couples support them to learn locally just like you support them to learn in lakewood.October 13, 2010 4:27 am at 4:27 am #1133374
Michigan 13.1%, California 12.4%, Florida 11.7%, Illinois 10.1%, New Jersey 9.6% Pennsylvania 9.2%, Connecticut 9.1%. (Hmm, not only is NY better than all these States, it seems the closer to New York they are, the lower the unemployment rate!)
look at maryland 7.3% minnesotta 7.0%
i don’t think youre 100% rightOctober 13, 2010 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1133375
i don’t think youre 100% right
Not only am I correct, my statistics are from the very same government website as you linked to! Fact is not only is NY below the unemployment average, most frum OOT communities currently have much higher unemployment rates than NY.
And why would you — in Florida with 11.7% — highlight NY’s low unemployment rate?October 13, 2010 1:56 pm at 1:56 pm #1133376
“cleveland has telz”
Those days are long over.October 13, 2010 3:54 pm at 3:54 pm #1133377bptParticipant
Moq and My Friend made very good points (and Moq, I loved your line about stores that cater to the Rich and Yeshivish)
As NYer as I am, I try very hard not to get swept up in the cell-text-always-wired-always-want-to-be-somewhere-else mania.
When I go to shul / shiur, I leave my cell phone at home. If its THAT important, I can be called out. Its only 15 minutes from my house, so if its not important enough to come get me, it can wait till I get back home.
A few years ago, I was at a concert, sitting in the $25 seats. Ahead of me, were the $50, $75 and $100 seats. At any given point, half the crowd, (sitting in very expensive seats), could be seen on their Blackberry / PDAs. And these were people that paid good money to be there, yet apparently wanted to be somewhere / with someone else. Its a NY thing.
My friend made another good point. OOT (wherever that might be) everyone is there by choice, so they presumably share common interests / goals, whatever, so not only are there less people to know, all the people there WANT to be there, and enjoy being there. Contrast that to a NYer like me, I’m forced (self imposed, perhaps, but that’s besides the point) to be here, along with the the other 50,000 or so people in frum NYC, there is no way for me to get to know each and every one of them. So I stick to the 50 or so friends (excluding the CR friends of course to which logistical constraints do not apply)and leave it at that.
As far as the mad rush in NYC as opposed to elsewhere, this (IMHO) is because in NYC, if you blink, you’ve missed something. OOT (again, werever that might be) if you close your eyes for 30 minutes, what did you miss? The grass growing another milimeter? (Ha, Ha, just kidding)
But really, NYC is a frenzied merry-go-round, and we are hanging on for dear life, loving every thrill-packed moment! (this, as the sirens scream past my window, flying down 13th ave and 80 MPH!)October 13, 2010 4:02 pm at 4:02 pm #1133378ChossonMember
I got news for you, Yerushalayim is the best!October 13, 2010 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #1133379
Do you know what this thread reminds me of?
Neighborhood Day in boys camps.October 13, 2010 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #1133380WIYMember
I hear you 🙂
What would a girl know about Neighborhood Day in boys camps?October 13, 2010 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #1133381
And why would you — in Florida with 11.7% — highlight NY’s low unemployment rate?
i’m not saying NY isn’t better than Florida this thread is about how NY is THE BEST which I’m sorry to say it isnt, if you look at my other posts i slam Florida too, and NY does have it’s maalos (I love it that I don’t have to worry about davening with a minyan, that I can chooses a restaurant to eat at, and that the subway can take me anywhere) but c’mon would you like to eat out on shabbos if you have little kids that can’t walk, once in a while (Personally i think an eruv also defines a community)(that’s how it is in all OOT places anyway) so in essence I’m saying it’s not THE BESTOctober 13, 2010 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #1133382not IMember
This is my favorite topic. I grew up out of town and wish I could go back. Quality and family life is worth so much more.. My mother grew up in BP and whenever she visits she thanks HaShem for not bringing us up there. WHo needs a shul on every corner? Who needs 5 cafes, 5 restaurants and 12 pizza stores in a 3 mile radius? Maybe that’s why obesity is in the rise even in the Frum circles!!
OK Shidduchim don’t necessarily come easily to an out-of towner.. Eventhough some only want them!! (more don’t want to think of it) That wont even hint to the mind set of a large size population there!!!!!
*Side note I am married to a boro parker who doesn’t stop raving about NY…October 13, 2010 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #1133383WIYMember
BP has an eiruv that many use. I dont think the Flatbush Eiruv is Kosher though.October 13, 2010 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1133384not IMember
Talking of the eiruv.. Plenty of Machlokes about that..
yay there is an eiruv but it is just another subject of Machlokes.
There are people that think Eiruvin bichlal are not so good cause when you go somewhere with out one you carry by mistake!October 13, 2010 5:14 pm at 5:14 pm #1133385
There are people that think Eiruvin bichlal are not so good cause when you go somewhere with out one you carry by mistake!
true that’s was why I used to not either (but then i got married and had a kid) but if there were no such places like flatbush then there wouldn’t be a problemOctober 13, 2010 5:19 pm at 5:19 pm #1133386
My brothers get the CD’s 🙂October 13, 2010 5:37 pm at 5:37 pm #1133387so rightMember
“*Side note I am married to a boro parker who doesn’t stop raving about NY…”
Can’t blame her. If you were a Boro Parker shlepped out by a spouse, you’d also be raving about NY!October 13, 2010 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1133388tomim tihyeMember
Moq- Thanks for the comic relief, as usual!
I live in a bubble, floating at my own pace, observing the show around me…
You want depth? We invested in some sturdy bookshelves…October 14, 2010 4:39 am at 4:39 am #1133389
Interesting post from another thread, relevant to this discussion:
Dear midwest2 i am a NYer and admit that my house probably would cost anywhere between 50-150 thousand less in most of the places you just mentioned.If you have four kids out of town living expenses will cost more for a frum family on a daily/year to year basis then living in Brooklyn or Queens. Out of NY there is even more expensive yeshiva and camp tuition, commuting costs, property taxes, and kosher food and neccesity of needing two cars in many of those areas. Additionally, their are of course many amenities to living in a big city such as generally better healthcare social programs etc.. I.E. if for fifteen years you are paying 10-15 thousand more a year in taxes commuting and tuition you definetly as a frum family spend more by living out of town.
Lakewood and Waterbury, are the only two places where this does not hold true as the housing prices in Waterbury are amazingly low and yeshiva tuition is low as well. Housing prices in Lakewood are much lower then many urban Jewish areas with much higher property tax but Yeshiva tuition is comparable to Brooklyn.
POSTED 1 HOUR AGO #September 17, 2013 2:22 am at 2:22 am #1133390Burnt SteakParticipant
Just want to say that the only thing New York City has going for it is YU. Other than that Manhattan is crowded and noisy.January 25, 2016 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #1133391YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
If you have to sign on to so many Screen Names in order to make your point you must not really believe it either.January 25, 2016 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #1133392Little FroggieParticipant
29, Someone was trying FOR TWO YEARS to make a point and you don’t let him/her?!?June 21, 2017 8:30 am at 8:30 am #1301202Avi KParticipant
“If the Jew thinks that Berlin is Jerusalem … then a raging storm wind will uproot him by his trunk and subject him before a faraway gentile nation… a tempest will arise and spread its roaring waves, and swallow, and destroy, and flood forth without pity. Therefore, you will not be calm, nor shall there be a resting place for the sole of your foot is a blessing, for as long as the Jewish People are uncomfortable in exile, they will yearn to return to their homeland.” – Meshech Chochma Vayikra 26:44.June 21, 2017 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1301241golferParticipant
That was a quote we all needed to hear (or read).
Wherever we find ourselves today- NY, OOT, or even Yerushalayim, we do well to remember that the Geulah hasn’t come yet and we have to wait and daven for it every day , no matter how pleasant or unpleasant the circumstances we find ourselves in.
Our homeland is not just a geographic location, but a life on a different plane of existence that we first experienced as a nation in no land at all, in middle of a desert.June 21, 2017 9:11 am at 9:11 am #1301252🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
golfer – YES!!!June 21, 2017 10:02 am at 10:02 am #1301341GadolhadorahParticipant
Obviously, there are economic considerations driving younger frum couples to relocate to one of a number of smaller and medium size cities throughout the U.S. (many of whom have actually run ads here on YWN promoting their local virtues). For most couples, its hard to find a nice apartment in NYC and support yeshiva tuition on less than $150-$180,000/year combined income. For two college grad families with both working, that’s not a problem but it is for the large percentage of young couples from heimeshe families with only one working and w/o and advanced degree. In those cases, places like Rochester, Virginia Beach, Suburban Cleveland, Phoenix, etc. offer very attractive options for a frum lifestyle and much lower living costs. Obviously, you miss the cultural attractions of NYC in terms of museums, theatre, etc. but for many frum couples, they don’t patronize such attractions anyway so relocation is not such a great loss. A bigger concern is being further from family and friends in a new community.June 21, 2017 10:58 am at 10:58 am #1301441JosephParticipant
Hador, the cost of frum Jewish kosher daily living is less on a yearly basis in the NYC/Monsey/Lakewood area than OOT frum kosher areas.
Additionally, the growth of the frum community in the NYC/Monsey/Lakewood area is greater than the frum growth OOT. Indeed, many of the newer frum residents in the NYC/Monsey/Lakewood area moved there from OOT. There are numerous OOT areas than have experienced a dwindling frum community.
And as described earlier in the thread, the NYC/Monsey/Lakewood area has a plethora of frum services such as kosher groceries and food options. Yeshivos, Botei Medroshim, Chesed orgs (Hatzolah, Shomrim, Chaveirim, Bikur Cholims, Tzedakah orgs, Gemachs, etc.), in addition to the easy availability of many roshei yeshivos, rebbe’s, gedolim, etc, that aren’t nearly as easily or readily available in other towns.June 21, 2017 1:10 pm at 1:10 pm #1301577Avi KParticipant
Golfer, YW. Howevere, the Geula actually comes in stages (Yerushalmi Berachot 1:1). Since 5708 we have been in the Geula mode. Now Israel is an major economic player and if Netanyahu makes good on his plans for further deregulation it will become a world powerhouse. We are also nearing the point where a majority of the Jewish people will live here. This means major changes both on the spiritual and halachic levels.
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