October 9, 2016 4:25 am at 4:25 am #618493
1. They are both former Republican governments from non-red states who managed to get conservative agendas enacted while working Democratics in the state legislatures.
2. They are both small government, economic conservatives. They are pro-business (unlike the Democrats) and against corporate welfare and crony capitalism (unlike Trump and the “Country Club” Republicans).
3. While a libertarian approach is bad if you want the government to enforce conservative social policy (ban abortion, criminalize gay practices, etc.), a libertarian approach is good if you are afraid of the “politically correct” establishment pushing its own view on you (restricting family size, closing down shuls for homophobia,etc.). If one can’t expect a friendly government, prefer a weak one that ignores you – and that’s suggests a libertarian approach.
4. While most frum Jews prefer a “muscular” foreign policy directed against those who would do us harm (e.g. the Muslims), neither Trump nor Clinton are consistent. More importantly, the major parties have so demonized each other than they have become the obstacle to the national unity necessary for a successful foreign policy. Johnson’s “isolationism” would lead to a stronger America, and a strong America is the best deterrent to the “bad guys”. Israel would benefit since America often prevents Israel from acting in its best interests, and American aid is largely directed are crippling Israeli industry by dumping subsidized American goods to keep Israel from building its own.
5. Johnson might be able to carry some states, and if the election goes to the House of Representatives, he has a chance of winning since all Democrats despise Trump, and all Republicans despise Clinton, and no one really hates Johnson. We would end up with a national unity government and an empowered Congress, which would be good.October 9, 2016 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1189273
Zero chance he’ll win in any scenario. If you won’t vote for either of the two major candidates, you may as well do a write-in vote for Justice John Roberts, for the same money.October 9, 2016 4:51 am at 4:51 am #1189274
Polls suggest Johnson is able to make it a three-way race in several states in his home region. Remember that if it becomes a Clinton-Johnson race in any state, many “Anybody but Hilary” voters will switch from Trump to Johnson.
If Johnson some electoral votes, the next question is whether Hilary (the front runner) will get the 270 electoral votes to win. But Hilary’s unpopularity suggests that might be a problem unless Trump’s campaign totally collapses. But if Hilary can’t get the 270, it goes to the House. However Trump is running strong in the south and the rust belt but Johnson might pick up some votes in the west/mountain region. It’s a zero sum game, either Hilary gets 270 or she doesn’t and it goes to the House. In that case, even “wasted” votes for third parties matter since someone with 38% of the popular vote isn’t able to claim “I have a mandate” whereas someone with 51% could.
In the House, they vote by state (i.e. New York gets one vote, so does Montana). State’s whose congressional delegations are evenly divided will abstain. If neither Trump not Clinton can get 26 states, it deadlocks. And Johnson is the likely compromise candidate.October 9, 2016 4:56 am at 4:56 am #1189275
That is all a fantasy scenario.October 9, 2016 4:58 am at 4:58 am #1189276
Hillary will win an outright electoral and popular vote. This fact was never in doubt ever since Trump wrapped up the Republican nomination.October 9, 2016 2:18 pm at 2:18 pm #1189277
Hillary wold be a disaster for frum Jews. If you say Hillary is inevitable, you are saying the demise of our community is inevitable.October 9, 2016 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1189278
Hillary winning this election is inevitable. The rest is your conjecture.October 9, 2016 4:49 pm at 4:49 pm #1189279Avi KParticipant
Johnson is a flake. Moreover, he supports legislation that will force people to participate in toeva weddings (he explicitly said that a Jewish baker should be forced to bake a cake for a Nazi event).October 9, 2016 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1189280CTLAWYERParticipant
Clinton as President will not be a disaster for Frum Jews as you claim.
Legal abortion, same sex marriage are already the law of the land. No one forces you to have an abortion or marry a same sex partner. The choice is merely available for those who want to do so.
Most Frum Jews in America live in Liberal states. For example the Equal Rights Amendment never was ratified and made part of the US Constitution, BUT it was made part of our state constitutions in NY, MA and CT (I’m not a member of the Jersey Bar so I didn’t bother learning their constitution).
Very little of US foreign policy affects your ability to live as a Frum Jew in the USA. I look forward to traveling to Cuba this winter…I haven’t been there since 1958. If I never get to Moscow or Tehran again, I don’t mind.
The change of President will have no affect on your religious rights..they are granted by the Constitution and the courts, not the Executive Branch.October 9, 2016 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #1189281dbrimParticipant
HUH? and who inteprets the constitution – and when the court has an ovewhelming majority of liberals – that won’t affect religious rights? And what about foreign policy and E”Y, or is that a concern for AMERICAN jews?October 9, 2016 5:34 pm at 5:34 pm #1189282
“A nation, as a society, forms a moral person, and every member of it is personally responsible for his society.”
-Thomas JeffersonOctober 9, 2016 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #1189283
The evils of Libertarianism
“The sure cause for evil to flourish, is for good men to do nothing”
Because I was not a ..
Because I was not a …
Because I was not a ….October 9, 2016 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #1189284October 9, 2016 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1189285
Libertarians believe that the government should stay out of things, not that people should not speak out.October 9, 2016 5:53 pm at 5:53 pm #1189286
R’ Avigdor Miller wrote in a full page editorial in 1980 excoriating Democratic President Carter and demanded that all orthodox vote AND actively work for his defeat
In the editorial he wrote voting for the Libertarian candidate is much worse than voting Jimmy CarterOctober 9, 2016 5:57 pm at 5:57 pm #1189287
Avos 5:13 ??? ??? ???? ??? on Libertarianism
Remember a short six years ago only (astonishing ), States that previously held referenda on marriage had the record then in favor of Retaining Traditional marriage 31-0 !!
The non-jews, in their guts sense that , as VP Joe Biden proclaimed, it is primarily jewish influence[media,etc.] who are responsible for the seismic social quakeOctober 9, 2016 6:11 pm at 6:11 pm #1189288
What about their threatening of the COR and the STAR K to certify “events”?
What about the public muzzling and destroying of any celebrity who even vaguely slightly insinuates that they might like traditional values?
The CEO. of Mozilla was forced to step down,because he had supported prop 8?!
What about their forcing curriculum changes on countless many states?
You all heard about the bakery in Oregon that is was fined $135,000 for refusing to bake a cake for a lesbian ‘event
And Then gofundme shut down the crowdfunding, and demanded the bakery pay it themselves?!
“The change of President will have no affect on your religious rights..they are granted by the Constitution and the courts, not the Executive Branch.”
Addition to 2016 Democratic Platform: supporting the removal of (gender,etc.)
exemptions for religious and any other institutions
Really?! Are you trying to mislead?October 9, 2016 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1189289
“are already the law of the land”
That is probably we’re in this world for !
To change it!
And if it comes to it,
Ever heard of civil Disobedience?!
What did the refuseniks do?
Might it be conceivable that some take Judaism as seriously as it is intended?
Perhaps try a different milieu,you will be somewhat less to accost with as great frequency.October 9, 2016 8:28 pm at 8:28 pm #1189290
The most libertarian libertarians are mostly against forcing people to bake cakes.October 9, 2016 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #1189291
True Libertarianism could only happen where people live far away from each other like the Wild West
And it was called ..the Wild West!October 9, 2016 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #1189292
What a Rav wrote about politics almost two generations ago is irrelevant.
Today there is a serious movement to use government powers to coerce people to have fewer children (since less people means less carbon emission and the “holy grail” of the left is now “global warming), and to marginalize religious institutions that engage in politically incorrect behavior (such as teaching the homosexuality is wrong, or separate seating).
In a world in which those in powers want the government to “crack down” on religious groups such as our own, a libertarian approach which weakens the government is in our interests. A government that likes us would be nice, but avoiding one that hates us is a more pressing matter.October 9, 2016 11:13 pm at 11:13 pm #1189293
The Wild West was not libertarian.October 9, 2016 11:28 pm at 11:28 pm #1189294
The Democratic Party can put whatever it wants in its platform and it does not change the fact that the president does not have authority over religious rights. They could, for example, add to the platform supporting the United States as a monarchy, and it would not happen.October 10, 2016 4:04 am at 4:04 am #1189295yehudayonaParticipant
Akuperma, Zero Population Growth was a fringe movement 45 years ago and it still is. Countries with shrinking populations are desperate to reverse their course. China’s policy of one-child families led to a shidduch crisis much worse than ours. Remember, the mantra of liberals and feminists is reproductive rights.October 10, 2016 4:16 am at 4:16 am #1189296SparklyMember
MANY people are voting for him as well.October 10, 2016 4:37 am at 4:37 am #1189297
YY, sodomites “marriage” was a fringe movement just a few short years ago with even Obama officially opposed to it when running for president the first time and 31 out of 31 state referendums all voting against it.
It very quickly changed with the Democrat party falling quickly in line to liberal demands.October 10, 2016 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #1189298
What is your whole davening on Rosh hashana about?!
Do you ch”v just mouth the words?
Upholding Basic moral Values is a prerequisite for, and comes prior to Malchus Shamayim
cf. Yirmiyahu 2:13 comm.October 10, 2016 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1189299
“Human progress is neither automatic nor inevitable… Every step toward the goal of justice requires sacrifice, suffering, and struggle; the tireless exertions and passionate concern of dedicated individuals.”October 10, 2016 4:31 pm at 4:31 pm #1189300
The environmentalists are now complaining that it is ecologically incorrect to have large families since many child produce too much carbon. And environmentalists have “clout” (note that GMOs have been banned in many countries, and the ban is enforced by trade sanctions, forcing many third world countries to face starvation from using obsolete non-GMO crops). In the US, a minor change in the tax code (limiting tax credits for children to the first child) would seriously hurt us.
We can already see movement to penalize religious minorities that continue to reject the political correct movement towards same sex marriage, not to mention same-gender bathrooms. Do you really want to wait until the police close down mikvas for being single sex, or that yeshivos are no longer accept for compulsory education purposes for failing to oppose “homophobia”?
An overall policy to limit that power of the state is in our interests. And that brings one to the Libertarian approach. A side benefit is that most frum businesses are “small”, and the Democrats favor state-run operations, and the Trump Republicans are supportive of corporate welfare only for big businesses. A Libertarian approach would help frum business.October 10, 2016 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1189301
I believe in morals too much to put the government in charge of them.October 10, 2016 5:25 pm at 5:25 pm #1189302
Joseph got it right. The rest of you are off on tangents.
As for disasters for the Jews: Hitler was a disaster. Hillary (and every other candidate for the US president in at least the last 50 years, with the exception for Dopie Donnie) is not even close.October 10, 2016 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #1189303
What caused the rise of Hitler ? A decadent Weimar Rebublic
Plus,”disasters for the Jews”
This may be a shock to you. There are worse things than a Holocaust
What is being a jewish about?
What do we need it for?
Just assimilate and disappear and we’ll avoid the Hitlers(skip hitler went after assimilated also ,yada yada)
Who was disasterous for malaysians?October 10, 2016 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #1189304
We are in this world for the purpose of Malchus Shamayim i.e. Bringing moshiach
That is all .
The problem is there are many (mouthing piousness ) whose goals are .. different
There are even more who however well meaning, are cop-outs essentially
[They’ll rationalize that
“they’ll working on themselves” or ” they’re working on they’re families”
but] the net sum is the same
cf. last verse of Psalm 123 comm.October 10, 2016 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #1189305
Reply to “It is time for …”: I have no idea what you are trying to say, except for your assertion that there are things worse than the Holocaust. Perhaps I am unimaginative, but I cannot think of anything worse.October 10, 2016 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1189306benignumanParticipant
If Johnson was a real Libertarian, I would agree with you.October 10, 2016 10:46 pm at 10:46 pm #1189307
It is Time for Truth, I figuratively hear you mouthing piousness, but I know nothing of your goals.October 11, 2016 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1189308
In a year from today ??? ???? ???, the world will be a different place
Most Probably [according to forecasts]for the worse. Possibly it will be irrevocable.
It is still up to us
Tonight and tomorrow is our chanceOctober 13, 2016 3:13 am at 3:13 am #1189309
Are you by any chance related to Sam Klein/Mashiach Agent?October 13, 2016 7:46 pm at 7:46 pm #1189310
I just noticed that there is a fine-print description under my screen name. Did I do that, or did the mods? It’s accurate – I actually wrote that in one of my posts – and I don’t mind if someone else applied it to me, but where did it come from?
Me. – Mod-100October 14, 2016 3:57 am at 3:57 am #1189311
‘Reply to “It is time for …”: I have no idea what you are trying to say, except for your assertion that there are things worse than the Holocaust. Perhaps I am unimaginative, but I cannot think of anything worse.’
Could you imagine possibly that there might be something in the world worse than your own death or you’re unable to fathom anything in the world that’s worse than it?October 26, 2016 10:14 pm at 10:14 pm #1189312
IITFT, can you imagine death itself?October 26, 2016 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1189313
RebYidd23????October 26, 2016 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #1189314
attempting to avoid the magnitude of the ?
Could you imagine there’s might be something worse fot the world than death or you’re unable to fathom it?October 26, 2016 10:33 pm at 10:33 pm #1189315
Hint: For our anscestors ’twas obviousOctober 26, 2016 10:40 pm at 10:40 pm #1189316
You didn’t answer the question.October 28, 2016 12:30 am at 12:30 am #1189317
It’s pertinent ,because?!October 28, 2016 12:33 am at 12:33 am #1189318
Do you and huju or don’t you and huju have Values you cherish worth more than life ?October 28, 2016 12:46 am at 12:46 am #1189319
If you can’t imagine death itself, how can you fault someone for not imagining beyond that?
And how should I know what huju’s values are?October 30, 2016 4:10 am at 4:10 am #1189320
Reply to the falsehood of “It’s time for truth”: I said I could not imagine anything worse than the Holocaust, from which you concluded that I was concerned about my own death. The Holocaust was not about my death, or any single Jew’s death. The Holocaust was the attempted (and nearly successful) genocide of the Jewish people.October 30, 2016 5:54 pm at 5:54 pm #1189321
“which you concluded that I was concerned about” death
Again, you’ll avoid
Could you fathom there might be something worse for the world than death [even genocide] or you’re unable to imagine it?
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