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I am saddened about the terrible heinous murder of a family that took place in Israel. There is no question that they are now enjoying the eternal bliss of the afterlife, and that reality makes me happy.
However, I will say this. We certainly need to be more vigilant with protecting our borders and tracking down the murderers. However, the most important question is WHAT IS HASHEM TELLING US? I can not speak for him, but I can point out some facts.
Before we go blaming the Arabs ymsh (who are to blame), lets do a little Tanach review. Anyone who studies it even superficially knows that one of the most recurring themes are that HASHEM PUNISHES FOR SIN.
The leadership of Israel are all Rishaim.
Back in my Yeshiva days I recall my RY quoting the Ramban. Chazal tell us that “Ain puronios bo l’olam ela bishvil Yisroel” (suffering comes to the world because of Yisroel).
If so, what about Sedom. Why were they destroyed? There were no Yisroel around (other than Avrohom, to a certain degree).
Seeing their pictures is so so hearbreaking
TO JEWISHNESS: Eretz Yisroel has the highest amount of people that keep kosher, learn Torah, keep Taharas Hamishpacha (even the most the most chiloni goes to mikva at least once before getting married)and the Rishaim in the government even though they are pushing for cut-backs are the biggest supporters of Torah learning in the world.We cannot subscribe reason to Hashem meting out punishment, perhaps it was even due to sins by people in america as in the internet age we are very keenly and immediately effected by this tragedy. Do not cast aspersions and certainly you have no right to say all the leaders are Rishaim. Need I remind you there are Rabbonim and others who are part of the political process. I am not burying my head in the sand, yes there are problems in Eretz Yisroel but there are problems everywhere.We should Daven that in the Zechus of all the right things going on in Eretz Yisroel Hashem should protect his children and lead us into doing and helping us accomplish teshuva and bring our geula bimhera.
When the Sefer Torah is returned to the aron, we pray “Chadesh yomeinu k’ kedem.” We pray that HaShem renews His people, Klal Yisroel, and the nations of the world at large to a sense of morality, shleimus, and at-oneness with Him. The Torah is not only the blueprint for the universe, but is also the only means by which Klal Yisroel can be redemmed and restored to a state of shleimus. Only when we abandon all evil and foreign ideas and return to the emes and zisskeit of Torah will we be redeemed from golus and see Moshiach come.
abcd2: You wrote SO WELL!
Jewish- you’re comment was written in a very inappropriate timing.
You are correct in saying that Tzaros come from our sins. But you should preach this on a nice and sunny day. Not when a family is broken and in so much pain. It’s like blaming the victims for their death.
You are causing them extra pain.
When a Tzaroh comes Lo Aleinu- you just cry along and Daven, and do Tshuva privately for YOUSELF.It is NOT a time for preaching.
Besides that- are you so so stringent in Hilchos Loshon Hora? In every detail of Hilchos Shabbos? Tznius? Honoring your parents? Making Shalom? All other Mitzvohs?
We can never know which sins we are being punished for, and it’s therefore not our job to accuse people.
Everyone has to improve in their own little way. When you’ll be perfect, you’ll change the world.
Jewishness has a point. It is mamash a traged that only 15% of Jews, at most, are Torah-observant, according to conservative estimates.
Jewishness has a point. It is mamash a traged that only 15% of Jews, at most, are Torah-observant, according to conservative estimates.
Who cares what the conservative think?
Jewishness;
‘Mi Keamcho Yisroel, Goy Echod B’Aretz’
‘We’ , not the other nations of the world, accepted the Torah!
‘We’ not the other nations of the world endured persecution and suffering throughout the centuries Al Kiddush Hashem’
‘We’, not the other nations of the world, work endlessly to bring our own back to Yiddishkeit.
‘We’, have less blood on our hands , a cleaner track record (per centage wise, ofcourse) than the other nations of the world.
Ofcourse we have to strive to be better.
I can assure you Hashem is proud of us.!
In fact, its written in Sefer Iyov, that Hashem will never hold it against us if we are angry at Him for any tragedy that might befall us.
May Hashem avenge the blood of our brothers.
jewishness – Stop blaming the frei yidden for all the Tzoros in the world. Most of them are Tinnuk Shenishbu. I know plenty of fakirs who look frum and do every Aveirah in the books. L’H, Motzai Shem Rah, is rampid among us. Chazal say “Kshot, V’achar Kach Ksot Achairim”.
If you must blame, look inwards, not at everyone else. I always find the first to condemn are always the ones who are feeling guilty about something!
Jewishness- now your talking a little better.
Smartcookie: It says that when there’s a tzara r”l, you should be yefashpesh bemaasav. He wasn’t preaching to the aveilim, but to us.And I think it is perfect timing, cuz we’re all shaken and willing to do something to help our poor brethren.
Observant- the OP is specifically blaming Israeli people for their sins:
If the victims’ family members read this post, it’s horrible for them. They feel that the OP is blaming the victims even though I’m sure he isn’t blaming them.
When there’s a Tzaroh- we each have to improve OURSELVES. It’s not in place then to go around telling people who brought this Tzaroh.
(Maybe Hashem is more intolerant of our Loshon Hora/Tznius, than others’ Chilul Shabbos. We really cannot know.)
We’re all at fault and it’s up to each individual to know why.
jewishness….really now? blaming these brutal murders on Jews who open a light on shabbos is a bit much….
You have no idea why this happened, so stop trying to explain it with your retarded lodgic…
i actually thought neturai karta were the arch enemies of the Torah but thankyou for exposing yourself. The last time i looked there were no secular zionists embracing achmadinejad or calling for destruction of the jewsih people because they live in eretz yisroel. I agree secular Zionists are wrong but that doesnt make you right. At least most of the secular zionists are tinok shenishbar as oppossed to others who know the Torah and twist it
To msseeker:Iam very happy that you have found the reason for our punishments we are facing. Just by the way I would like to point out in the Torah aside from the three oaths , there is also zachor es yom hasshabbos, kabed es avicha vies emecha, lo signov,Viahavta liracha kamocha….
I agree with jewishness, msseeker, rebdoniel, truth be told, and observanteen. The Neterei Karta may be wrong but what they do is annoying but harmless; the Zionists are evil and what they do results in Jews being killed.
Now that I know all about the evil Secular Zionists etc., what should I do? Another demonstration etc.? I’d rather cry and pray, do Teshuva for MY averos (it affected me, abviously it was aimed at me too), not someone else’s. In my humble capacity I cannot effect any change in a government. Sorry, it’s not the message I’m receiving.
How about the fact that only when there is a tragedy that the Jews band together but when everything is fine and dandy there is sooooo much disunion??
Instead of yelling about how the Jews in Israel don’t keep the Torah which won’t help anything, why not work on yourself (I’m not talking to someone in particular) and on Achdus so that we don’t need such tragedies to pull us together.
Jewishness- nobody disagrees with you that what the secular people do isn’t bad. But it doesn’t mean that THEY bring Tzaros to us. We can’t change them anyway. We may as well change ourselves.
All you can do is pray for them that they do Tshuva.
“Now that I know all about the evil Secular Zionists etc., what should I do?”
Stop supporting this ????? ?? ?????. Stop celebrating the military victories of these ????? that are a thorn in H’s eyes. (Yes, I know there are many religious soldiers, but the army in general is a nest of sin.) Of course we need to focus on our own shortcomings too, but when the cause-&-effect are so obvious, we don’t go looking for indirect causes like lashon hara or kibud av vaem.
Someone died in an accident while driving on Shabbos, and the Steipler (or chazon ish?) said it was b/c of Shabbos. When asked how he knows, many people are ???? ??? and dont die, he said, “If the torah says ?????? ??? ???? the cause is obvious. We dont go looking for other causes.”
If a smoker has lung cancer, nobody says it’s b/c he didnt exercise enough.
msseeker: Support? You know me? Been trailing me?
No. I don’t really support them. But fight them. Let me begin with my Yetzer Horah first. As someone so eloquently wrote ???? ???? ???”? ???? ?????. If CR is still around when I’m finished, I’ll let you know when I’m ready.
Grandmaster….the murdered rabbi was a zionist a member of the IDF….nice to know that you hate Jews as much as the Arabs….
“Neterei Karta may be wrong but what they do is annoying but harmless;”
wow, cant believe you wrote that, what do you call attending a holocaust denying conference in Iran or budding up to Fatah
your lodgic and words is why we have not been merited with the comming of the Moshiach, your attitude and disregard for human life is why we wait and wait and wait…..
stop blaming non relegious Jews for this, most non relegious Jews have no idea about their own relegion nor what is right or wrong…
your comments make me sic to my stomach…
I hope the family of the victims never come here and read your comments
shame shame on you
Popa,
No, a conservative (little c) estimate has nothing to do with either the Jewish movement or the poltiical ideology- the word conservative can also mean realistic, modest, not overblown, probable, restrained, likely, etc.
mikehall: I said it was very wrong. But tell me, by them going to that conference, it made us look bad and is NOT justifiable – but who died as a result of them going there? Who lost limbs as a result?
When a non religious JEW violates Shabbos, it brings the wrath of Hashem upon US. WE are ALL Jews – religious or not.
“- but who died as a result of them going there? Who lost limbs as a result?”
you dont know, you don’t have the answers so stop pretending you do…
I spoke to ??? ?????, as I assumed you were speaking for ??? ?????, and I meant moral support. The problem today is IMHO not so much secular Zionism as religious Zionism; even worse is the tacit approval of supposedly non-Zionists. The Zionists, both secular and religious, are mostly tinokos shenishbu. Those Mizrachi settlers nebach think they’re moser nefesh for the greatest mitzva (much like NK), but the yeshivishe and chassidishe oilom should know better. Every time a yid rejoices in his heart over a Zionist victory, he rejoices over a ????? ????. Hashem was ??? ???? ?? ???? ??? ????? in order to spare ??? ?????but those fools do the opposite. Where’s the heter to spill Jewish blood for the sake of the land, or even the kosel? We should educate our misled brothers instead of going along with their foolish martyrdom. I write this with the greatest pain for the innocent korbanos of this insanity Hy”d. May we never hear of such tragedies again.
Im a Bubby, not a Biblical scholar, but my heart tells me what angers Hashem more than anything is lack of Achdus and selfishness among Jews, more than sins of secular Jews and government.
Also, how can we fault irreligious Jews for Aveiros, if religious Jews are far from Aveiros-free?
Jewishness & all those that agree with you –
“but you find fault in people who at least keep the basic laws! I think there is some latent Jewish self hatred in such people.”
The only self-hating Jews are the ones who despise Frei Yidden. Your posts are typical of teenage yeshiva bochurim, but I’m surprised you never heard of the Halacha of Tinnuk Shenisbu after all you “learn” in a yeshiva. I’ve posted this many times -frei yidden are Putter for their actions nowadays as opposed to those whom know better. The Torah consists of basic laws besides Shmiras Shabbos -like for example, I consider not stealing or speaking L’H also part of the basic laws.
Why don’t you review the Haftorah of Shabbos Chazon and you will understand why Hashem punishes us and keeps us in Golus? Enough already blaming everyone who doesn’t agree with your political beliefs. BTW, I agree with you politically, but this has nothing to do with why punishment comes to the world. It’s much easier in life to blame everyone else, than to look inwards!
i didn’t read through every single post, but M”Sh i just felt like there is a HUGE wake up call from Hashem to do Teshuva, between the tragedy in Itamar and Japan… it shook me to the core.
Jewishness: I didn’t call religious Zionism worse than secular Zionism. I said IMHO it’s a bigger PROBLEM. Why? Because they should know better than to go along with the secular Zionists. And the aproving chareidim are an even bigger problem because they should know even better than to go along with the religious Zionists. How do you think H’ feels when we gloat over the victories of those who hate him? ??? ?????? ?’ ???? ???????? ?????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????? ??? ??.
Your first question I won’t respond to here, since the answer is purely rhetorical. You can check out Netruna (TrueTorahJews) for info, or the classical seforim like V’Yoel Moshe.
BTW I did not appreciate your attacking tone.
The answer is lengthy and controversial. And I don’t exactly have the time and patience to engage in endless arguments that serve no practical purpose. The zionists won’t do what I believe they’re supposed to do. All we can do is, daven that Hashem show them the right path as in fact many of them did, such as Rav Tal.
BTW, Veyoel Moshe is not “some book”. It’s the bible of anti-zionism which has turned many a Mizrachist into a staunch follower of the Satmar Rav. If you haven’t read at least parts of it, or a similar sefer like ??? ???? ??????, please don’t argue about religious Zionism.
Jewishness: I never read the veyoel moshe, and I don’t plan on doing so, but I can’t argue against it unless I read it! Why wouldn’t you want to do some research? (I don’t really care much about this topic, it’s just that I care the way you talk to a fellow Jew)
there are no words, there is no explanation…the senceless brutal murder of this family is beyond words…
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