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That rug is too bumpy already.
BenK,
The way I see it, rightly or wrongly, is that these so called ‘kano’im’ will not listen to anyone. If you are familiar with the baryonim of the gemora gittin that is learned on tisha b’av, these people are similar.
At the time of the 2nd churban, Rabban Yochanan ben Zakai said that the baryonim wouldn’t let him out of Yerushalayim to make peace with the Romans. This was the godol hador of that time. Those people according to some opinions were ‘frum’ jews who took the law into their hands and had no rabbonim of note with them.
These hooligans, think they are doing the biggest mitzva in the world. They listen to nobody and will not bear the thought of anyone opposing them. They threw stones at Rav Elyashiv zt”l, they continue to disgrace Rav Steinman Shlit”a, and even the Eida’s own Rav Moishe Sternbuch shlit”a. Similar to the ‘Neturei Karta’ (the modern day NK, not the organisation of yesteryear with the same name), they have no gedolim or any recognised Torah authority on their side, yet claim that they speak for Torah jewry.
If the rabbonim oppose them publicly, it will just rub them up the wrong the way, and then they’ll never get anywhere. They would just call them apikorsim who support the zionists.
I’m open to discussion…
Most gedolim rarely leave the Beis Medrash, they dont read the news and dont really know what is going on unless Askanim tell them.
They probably dont know about this as the Askanim dont tell them
I’m not surprised we haven’t heard rabbonim speaking publicly about this as if they actually hear about this, they likely get a distorted version in which the details of whatever argument went on inside the shteiblach that muddies the issue. If rabbonim have in fact spoken out it’s unlikely to make headline news.
What shocked me in particular is the passersby who seemed to view it as none of their business or two of the people who seemed to view it as street entertainment r”l. I would hope if I was there I’d have the courage to stick up for the soldier and confront the sikrikim.
P.S. BenK, your writing style and capitalisation makes it hard to read your posts.
BenK: Please write in a calm and coherent manner. I have difficulty reading your posts.
The super frum neighborhoods of Yerushalayim have a history of hating on the army. While I cannot agree with the actions of these people, I certainly am not surprised. This is the same neighborhood which pamphlets, petchkvilim, and graffiti are regularly being motzei shem ra on gedolei yisroel who have the audacity to say that joining the army is better than going off the derech.
Rav Shteinman paskened that even if someone is NOT learning, it is better to dodge the draft by running to India than to join the IDF.
Joseph,
He did not mean that. He was giving a brush-off to get rid of the asker. It’s clear from Rav Shteinman’s words that he didn’t really mean it.
This is from the article you cited.
You see in the article that even those around the Rav asked him why he gave an outlandish psak/eitza.
Rav Shteinman may have been in favor of the army at some point
The super frum neighborhoods of Yerushalayim have a history of hating on the army.
Anyone behaving in this manner is not so frum.
There are indeed Rabbonim that have come out against these hooligans – I seem to remember R’ Gershon Edelstein coming out with a particularly sharp statement to that effect.
But the reason that most Rabbonim don’t condemn this is the same reason most Rabbonim don’t bother to condemn people driving on Shabbos in Tel Aviv – because it will have exactly zero effect (as georgie613 nicely pointed out).
takahmamash:
Doesn’t hating on “the super frum neighborhoods of Yerushalayim” also make one “not so frum”?
These things are taken out of proportion. I can find a video of a lot of things. In fact the question seems a little like the soldier. you know what the answer is you just want to make “Haock”.
Did you ever consider the possibility that the Rabbonim are in favor? You would be surprised at the attitudes and opinions expressed by the so-called ‘moderate’ mainstream Israeli Charedim, it is very different to Americans
Joseph, India? Perhaps the world center of avoda zara. As Zahavasdad pointed, the gedolim say what the askanim want them to say. It can also be pikuach nefesh. When Rav Eliashiv reached a compromise with the government on moving remains he was stoned.
Why don’t you ask why Rabbanim don’t speak out against drug dealers, thieves and murderers? Whatever reasons you can come up with, apply here as well.
Why don’t you ask why Rabbanim don’t speak out against drug dealers, thieves and murderers? Whatever reasons you can come up with, apply here as well.
Most drug dealers, thieves and murderers do not come from their communities and therefore whatever they say really has no effect on them
zahavasdad,
I think you’ve answered the question.
Geodie613, yes, if inadvertently.
This wasn’t so terrible. It’s not like they had a TV in a sports bar.
Seriously, Geordie and DY, why shouldn’t that logic be applied to the coffee room? Why do posters criticize Zionism, MO , OK etc when they also don’t come from their community? The same applies when the above group gods after charaidi etc.
The other thing that I thought would bother more people is how the gedolim were defended. They were portrayed as helpless and isolated, totally at the mercy of controlling askanim for information about the outside world
Joseph
“Rav Shteinman paskened that even if someone is NOT learning, it is better to dodge the draft by running to India than to join the IDF.”
Did he also pasken that it is allowed to embarrass, throw things, attack, or otherwise harass those who nevertheless joined, despite his psak?
Please name actual sources.
Do not answer something ridiculous like ‘its obvious that you’re supposed to run these men out of the shul they came to daven in’
Its not obvious at all that a gadol like R Shteinman would condone this behavior.
WHY?!?
It’s because of this dor yosom, the ones who criticize our Rabbonim at every turn, at every opportunity. ‘US’ VS. those blasted, {expletive} Rabbonim. How dare they this, how dare they that.. so their true emese deah, Daas Torah, has no more effect. YOU TOOK IT AWAY!!! YOU’RE TO BLAME!! You reduced them to mere puppets, objects of ridicule and insult. Us little poeplach deciding who’s right, who’s wrong… (in CR language, “who’s PROVEN wrong”). ????? ???? ??? – are WE in a position to arbitrate between Gedolei Olam, to be ????? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ???????. Is it for us ?”? to decide this one is not infallible, that one is.. ???? ??????.
When we accord our Gedolim the proper respect and reverence HaShem demands of us, they, in turn, will be able to guide, assist, benefit us properly.
Froggie I’m not understanding you, because we don’t listen to them, they don’t have to stick up for what’s right
Calling a Rav Infallible is really disrepectful for the Rav. When you say or insinuate that a Rav is Infallible, someone who is looking to find a mistake he said, will usually find it without looking very hard. and then others will say the Rav is a phony causing people to disrespect the Gedolim.
better to be honest that gedolim are special people, who are not infallible and do make mistakes and people will respect that. Nobody expects them to be perfect unless they are put on a pedesel as and said they are.
Froggie, to the contrary, the reason why real gedolim are hesitant to air their opinions in public are because there may be blind people who misinterpret their words free of all nuance. Additionally, the “Public Service” gedolim (the ones who literally give up their lives for klal yisroel) would not have as much influence or be able to do much good by involving themselves in sectarian politics.
You apparently assume that every ramification of every act of a Gadol is foreseen by said Gadol and/or that there is an alternative act that they could do to make the world a better place (because that is the only thing real gedolim think about).
As Zahavasdad pointed, the gedolim say what the askanim want them to say.
Shame on you both.
Where do you think the Gedolim get their news from?
Do you think they turn on their laptop on go to YWN for the latest news story?
Do you think they turn on the Radio to 1010 wins and get the news or turn on Fox News to get the news?
Do you think they read the New York Times Daily for the news?
No they get the news from the Askanim , who “tell” then what is going on
Feivel, it’s just another way of getting out of listening to authority. First they’ll point out that gedolim are not infallible, therefore we can just assume they’re wrong whenever we want, then they’ll add that anyway, their opinions are usually based on misinformation.
The result is “Ish kol hayoshor b’einov ya’aseh”.
The kanaim have been around and making machaos for a very long time. Their rabbonim actually hold of it in many cases. The gedolim that don’t believe in it do speak out against it all the time but you can’t tell someone to listen to you over his rabbonim because he won’t really care. Rav Shteinman is against most protests but most yerushalmis don’t follow him at all.
Did NKUSA actually post something I agree with?
A) They wouldn’t admit it. NK use the Satmar Rov as their source (3 shvuos etc), but don’t listen to the current Rebbes of Satmar.
B) Yes, and gross stupidity.
C) Chilul Hashem, and sinas chinom. Probably elements of kofuy tov, but they would argue that the IDF has no role in our safety in EY today, it is only the Torah that keeps us going.
D) Don’t understand the question
ZD – the gedolom don’t turn on the radio…the askanim “tell” them.
You’re mistaken – there are Gedolim and Chassidishe rebbes that do listen to radio news. And more importantly, they listen to the voices of the community – to depict our gedolim as naive or uninformed is wrong. Many of the proclamations put out in the name of gedolim are simply lies. The gedolim are our einei haeida – not a mouth piece to issue proclamations. There are plenty of communal issues that as L”UL pointed out the gedolim don’t “speak out” against – the people who commit these acts of sinaas chinum (attacking Chareidi soldiers, dati leumi girls) often don’t have leaders and they aren’t part of the mainstream chareidi/chassidish community even if they look like they are. I think it’s self-understood that we don’t beat up, spit on other Yidden – so what’s there more to say unless you’re mistskingly assuming that these criminals have a mainstream chareidi viewpoint, which they don’t.
Do you really think Reb Chaim would waste his precious torah time to listen to the Radio? Its not like the news stories you are looking for come up immediately, you have to listen for it to come on, As 1010 wins says. you give us 22 mins , we give you the world. Do you really want Reb Chaim to spend 22 mins listening through commercials and other stuff he doesnt need to know (Like the latest celebrity scandal). No he has Askanim to listen and save his time against it
ZD – I’m not sure you understand the role gedolim play. Furthermore, are you familiar with the day-to-day lives of gedolim that you know for a fact that they don’t listen to the news, because here in E”Y I KNOW that some do (Kol Chai, etc – the frum stations). You can keeep reiterating the same point but that doesn’t make it true, even if you think it’s logical.
Protests are held against the draft as an expression of disagreement with government policies and laws (civil disobedience) – that’s quite different from protesting about the bad behavior of individuals – I don’t get the comparison.
And yes, Satmar will be Satmar – they are who they always have been and Kol Koreiys and protesting will not change them.
This is yeshiva world news – can we on occassion try to be dun chareidim l’kaf zechus?
dbrim
Please explain how someone who doesnt read or understand english could sign a ban on a book in english that was never translated. Obviosuly an Askan told the Gadol what ‘Was in the book” and he banned it. Dont think Askanim dont have sway, they do
There was a story I heard about Rav Moshe and Rav Shlomo Zalman.
Rav Moshe made a Psak and Rav Shlomo Zalman disagreed. So Rav Moshe wrote to Rav Shlomo Zalman to ask why and he never got a respose.
Later Rav Moshe met Rav Shlomo Zalman and asked him why he never responded and he answered that he never saw the letter. it turned out an Askan had intercepted it and never forwaded it to Rav Shlomo Zalman
zahavasdad when someone tells me a story I’ll NEVER believe every word he says. I’ll ask him many question so that I know which parts he actually witnessed, which ones he heard and which ones he just made up. That’s very fundemantal about critical thinking.
Now that’s me, and I’m not an exceptionally smart guy. It takes a LOT of shrewdness to be a great Oived Hashem (real Oived Hashem and not just full of frumkeit). That’s why I think the story about Gdoylei Yisrael believing every word that some Batlen tells them without questioning is pure fiction.
You just dont become an askan to a Rav, Somehow he gets to know you and they get their trust.
It is a problem when the Askan does something wrong and the Gadol refuses to belive his beloved Askan would ever do such a thing
“Seriously, Geordie and DY, why shouldn’t that logic be applied to the coffee room? Why do posters criticize Zionism, MO , OK etc when they also don’t come from their community? The same applies when the above group gods after charaidi etc.”
I have yet to see any posters on the CR posting about how terrible it is to murder or to be a drug dealer.
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