March 11, 2021 11:50 pm at 11:50 pm #1956414Aillrl HdleelParticipant
Some people wear two pairs of תפילין, one follows the opinion of רש”י, and the other follows the opinion of רבינו תם regarding the order of the פרשיות. Ironically, רבינו תם himself would say that the תפילין that they wear are פסול. Here’s why: תפילין needs to be written with דיו, a black ink. Most פוסקים hold that this is an ink made out of עפצים, gallnuts. However, תוספות in גיטין on (דף יט. (ד”ה דיו says that דיו can’t possibly be made with עפצים and one of the four proofs which he brings is from רבינו תם. This means that רבינו תם holds that “רבינו תם תפילין’s” would be פסול since the דיו which all סופרים nowadays use is made with gallnuts.March 12, 2021 12:31 am at 12:31 am #1956505Ari256Participant
Interesting, so what’s the teretz?March 12, 2021 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1956561March 12, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1956573
The teretz is that we only follow the Rabbenu Tam in the parshiyus. Did Moshe Rabbenu wear to tefillin?
The Aruch Hashulchan (34,9) says that both shitus are true. The Rabbenu Tam is havoyas b’emtza is for the next world and Rashi’s is for this world.March 12, 2021 9:20 am at 9:20 am #1956563
It is unclear. Is the Rabbenu Taam’s tefillin also written with מי עפצים?March 12, 2021 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1956616hujuParticipant
Chabadniks put on Rashi tefillin first, then, near the end of Shachris, put on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin. I know this practice as encouraged by Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneersohn, but I do not know whether it started before he became Rebbe.March 12, 2021 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1956620
Obviously above should be, did Moshe Rabbenu wear two tefillins? I see that you say that the Rabbenu Taam’s tefillin is also written like that.March 12, 2021 11:14 am at 11:14 am #1956625
Anyway the Aruch Hashulchan says that Rashi’s is pasul according to the Rabbenu Taam and vice versa, so our Rabbenu Taam’s is pasul according to him. We are putting it on according to his view in the parshiyus but not according to all his views.March 12, 2021 11:35 am at 11:35 am #1956631
When would the ashkenazim only make one bracha on tefillin? I think, if he makes two brachas my mistake on the Rabbenu Taam, then he should only make one bracha on Rashi’s tefillin.March 12, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1956646
The two sets of tefillin from over two thousand years ago at Qumran did not follow either Rashi or Rabbeinu Tam, and differed from each other.
Maybe any of the 24 possible orderings is actually kosher d’oraita.March 12, 2021 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1956647FrumWhereParticipant
The original post is a learned discussion, as is the correct answer alluded to by Reb Eliezer, but the rest of the responses are largely born of ignorance.
Chassidim in general (including Chabad) wear R”T tefillin for the latter part of Shacharis or afterwards. What Chabad does differently is that the Rebbe a”h instituted that bochurim should also wear them (contrary to implications in the Tur and Shulchan Aruch that only those steeped and habituated in Chassidus should wear them, which traditionally are not descriptors applied to bochurim). Sefardim also wear them, but they do as the Beis Yosef states to wear them simultaneously. Litvishe generally don’t wear them, as per the Gr”a, and the implications regarding being steeped in Chassidus.
The answer alluded to by Reb Eliezer is rather simple. It is known that the machlokes as to the Seder HaParshios preceded Rashi and R”T by many generations, so we want to be yotze both orders. But we don’t pasken like the R”T regarding the ink, so we aren’t choshesh for it.March 12, 2021 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #1956656
We find a similar idea in the placing of the mezuza. There is an argument between Rashi and Tosfas whether to place it horizantilly or verticaly, so we compromise and place it slented, satisfying both or neither.March 14, 2021 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1957073
“we compromise and place it slented”
Most Sefardi/Mizrachi Jews place it vertically.March 14, 2021 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1957072
“implications in the Tur and Shulchan Aruch that only those steeped and habituated in Chassidus”
The Tur and Shulchan Aruch long preceded Chasidus.March 14, 2021 6:16 pm at 6:16 pm #1957086
>> Tur and Shulchan Aruch long preceded Chasidus.
There are Chasidim all over Gemorah. It is like “liberals” and old-time “Liberals”….Even then, they did not always lived to the name. The one in Bava Basra 7b built a gate house and poor would not come to him (your theme, Charlie!), so Eliahu stopped coming.
by the way, could someone help me answer a basic question about this – did not the Chasid realize that he was wrong after Eliahu stopped coming?! If yes, did not he take the gate house down?! If yes, sounds like Eliahu still did not come back?! Does it mean that the character flaw of not thinking what could happen is that great?March 14, 2021 6:19 pm at 6:19 pm #1957090ToiParticipant
rebE- “We find a similar idea in the placing of the mezuza. There is an argument between Rashi and Tosfas whether to place it horizantilly or verticaly, so we compromise and place it slented, satisfying both or neither.”
This silly line of yours has become my pet peeve on this website. For the zillionth time, you are wrong. The gemara says you cannot place the mezuzah like the bolt/nail of a carpenter. If placed like that, it is possul. It is a machlokes Rashi and Tosfos whether that means horizontally or vertically. In order to avoid both shittos of the psul, we place it on a diagonal. It is not, for the flipping zillionth time, a compromise. ENOUGHMarch 14, 2021 6:54 pm at 6:54 pm #1957101
TOI >> The gemara says
you meant “gemOra” because Sephardi GemArah is apparently OK with the vertical.
And stop disturbing shalom in Reb Eliezer’s home! from his description of his family, he is doing _something_ right! maybe it is a proof that his 22.5 degree mezuzah is workingMarch 14, 2021 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #1957192
Toi, if one way is wrong the other way is right but we don’t do it either way but a third way to satisfy both. So we do something that both the husband and wife agree. Isn’t tbat a compromise?March 15, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1957335ToiParticipant
@rebE- Nooooo, we don’t do it a third way to satisfy both. We do it in a way that won’t qualify as possul by either one. Yes, we ‘chap a rein’ both shittos, but no, we are not compromising between the two to make everyone happy. It is not a chiyuv to have it either way, that shailah is which way is possul. Neither shitta would view diagonal as a compromise.March 15, 2021 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1957366ubiquitinParticipant
I have never heard it presented that way. It doesnt sound that way from the MEchaber “צְרִיכָה לִהְיוֹת זְקוּפָה” (not that its passul horizontal, but that it has to be vertical) .
Pischei Teshuva “והגר״א זצ״ל בש״ע שלו פסק כרש״י שצריכה להיות זקופה ע״ש וכן הוא בהנהגות שלו”
while your explantion makes a lot of sense, is it your own or have you seen it somewhere?March 15, 2021 11:48 am at 11:48 am #1957370☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
A moshol would be if a husband doesn’t like fried schnitzel band his wife doesn’t like grilled.
A compromise would be if they serve each half of the time.
If they just always eat steak, that’s not a compromise, it’s just avoiding the issue.March 15, 2021 1:20 pm at 1:20 pm #1957380
I think if you do something according to everyone’s view is a compromise.March 15, 2021 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1957388
We pasken like the machria because he creates a compromise.March 15, 2021 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1957396
YD, The RMA SA YD 289,6 says שולחן ערוך יורה דעה הלכות מזוזה סימן רפט סעיף ו
והמדקדקין, יוצאין ידי שניהם, (ט) ומניחים אותה בשפוע ובאלכסון (טור והגהות מיימוני ומהרי”ל ות”ה סי’ נ”ב),
we satisfy both views. I think that is not avoiding but compromising.March 15, 2021 1:22 pm at 1:22 pm #1957397twistedParticipant
charlle h ; the kumran teffilin had fallen apart and had been reassembled by the Arab antiquity thieves
and thus the arrangement was not authentic or conclusive.March 15, 2021 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1957410
My definition of a compromise is to do something where both sides are satisfied and happy with it without regard to any concessions which will create peace.March 15, 2021 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1957416
There is a concession here where they are willing to set aside their view for the greater good to make each other happy.March 15, 2021 6:42 pm at 6:42 pm #1957450ubiquitinParticipant
Chovos Hadar in perek 9 footnote 20 says what your saying, it sems it is his own explanantion. He brings the Minchas Elazar (chelek 1 siman 36 who does not say this, rather says that diaganol is considred upright) I heard similar from R’ Reisman that really we hold like Rashi but upright doesnt have to be exactly 90 degrees (compared to ground) at a slight angle is also upright. so we put it at an angle as a “Concession” to Rabbeinu Tam.
At any rate thanks for your point. EVen if strictly speaking it isn’t a “compromise” its close enough that I think your angst about it is misplaced.March 15, 2021 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #1957487se2015Participant
“the kumran teffilin had fallen apart and had been reassembled by the Arab antiquity thieves
and thus the arrangement was not authentic or conclusive.”
Is this reassembly by arab antiquity thieves a confirmed fact or a theory to explain inconsistencies with halacha?March 15, 2021 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1957501
>> kumran teffilin
I understand that Qumran artifacts are by sectarians, so may not be representative of Rabbinical tradition. Say, someone digs up a Reform temple with scarf and pink tefillin and use it to argue on Mishna Berurah.March 15, 2021 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1957511Aillrl HdleelParticipant
Yes, all סופרים nowadays use דיו with אפצים to write תפילין.March 31, 2021 10:10 pm at 10:10 pm #1961670Yechi HamelechParticipant
“Chabadniks put on Rashi tefillin first, then, near the end of Shachris, put on Rabbeinu Tam tefillin. I know this practice as encouraged by Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneersohn, but I do not know whether it started before he became Rebbe.”
Not near the end of Shachris – we do it at the very end after tehillim which we say after ach tzadikkim.
The minhag started after the Rebbe became rebbe in 1950. People would ask special permission to put on the rebbe sometimes gave, but only starting from married and onwards. then, in 1976, the Rebbe formally announced that everyone should start putting on rabenu tam starting from 2 months before BM by hanochos tefillin.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.